Obama doesn't want kids "punished" with babies

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Again, what is emotional about the argument?

There's no need to focus on prevention. Prevention is the easy part. Simply don't have sex. Makes the most sense, and incurs the least risk. I don't see how that's not the best solution.

Oh sure, it's the best solution... in the same perfect world where communism works too.

Again, don't go waxing about "responsibility" while shirking your own. That's where your emotionalism is. Children are a blessing... unless you're an undereducated child having a child in unexpected circumstances that could have been preventable except for the emotional/moral objections of persons like yourself.

Excusing rape, does having sex involve a choice?

What part is it about the fact that we are talking about teenagers -- children who aren't even old enough to drive or vote yet -- that continues to escape you?

Go back to your perfect world, commie, the rest of us would like to focus on the challenges of reality without your idealist interference.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: lupi
Having a baby is punishment?

I guess we should ignore personal responsibilty, parental guidance, and perhaps a little human morality while we are at it.

All things I would like to see in my leader.

are you on a list serv for sensationalized Obama stories?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Again, what is emotional about the argument?

There's no need to focus on prevention. Prevention is the easy part. Simply don't have sex. Makes the most sense, and incurs the least risk. I don't see how that's not the best solution.

Oh sure, it's the best solution... in the same perfect world where communism works too.

Again, don't go waxing about "responsibility" while shirking your own. That's where your emotionalism is. Children are a blessing... unless you're an undereducated child having a child in unexpected circumstances that could have been preventable except for the emotional/moral objections of persons like yourself.

Excusing rape, does having sex involve a choice?

What part is it about the fact that we are talking about teenagers -- children who aren't even old enough to drive or vote yet -- that continues to escape you?

Go back to your perfect world, commie, the rest of us would like to focus on the challenges of reality without your idealist interference.

Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Sinsear
The actual quote from his speech was:

?Look, I got two daughters ? 9 years old and 6 years old,? he said. ?I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don?t want them punished with a baby. I don?t want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesn?t make sense to not give them information.?

I think the only one who covered this was Michelle Malkin's blog and of course Hannity stirred it up on his radio show.

So it's somehow bad that he advocates good parenting and education?

I didn't say that; all i did was provide the link and the quote from his speech that everyone was asking for. Abortion is not one of the issues that makes any voting difference for me. Parental and personal responsibility are much more important than a silly pro-choice/pro-life argument.

Anyone who has half a brain knows exactly what Obama is saying: teenage girls having babies doesn't typically lead to happy outcomes. A young girl's entire life can be messed up, and FORCING a young girl to carry a baby to term would be cruelty of the worst sort. Anyone who quibbles with the word "punishment" to describe the situation is just trying to play word games.

I have no difficulty understanding those who view a human fetus (at any stage of development) as a person (though I totally disagree) and who think the rights of the fetus outweigh the rights of the girl. When you use "innocent child" to describe a 4-week-old fetus, I want to lose my lunch. But I understand that phrasing and won't quibble with it if I think it's a genuine expression of your beliefs (rather than demagoguery).

By the same token, if you're a pro-lifer, surely you can understand how a lot of people don't think an abortion - especially one performed in the first trimester - is that big a deal, and believe that forcing a young girl to bear a child she doesn't want is tantamount to torture.

So stop being disingenuous - you understand exactly what is being communicated here.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

 

[piasabird]

Some people think having a baby is a joy.

Then of course there is Britney Spears. Even as an adult some people are not ready to have a baby. If you are rich enough to hire an entire army of nannies and you cant manage to take care of one child, then you have serious problems.

Having a baby is a serious responsibility, but it is just part of life. Most parents do not get everything right.

 

[venkman]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Some people think having a baby is a joy.

How many of those people are 15 years old?

 

[piasabird]

When my daughter was 15, I did not even allow her to date or be out late at night. Sounds like a lack of parenting skills. Although if you are a single parent, you cant always be around to watch your kids 24/7.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

in many states a kid old enough to have a baby could be held on charges as an adult, so yes.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: venkman

Originally posted by: piasabird
Some people think having a baby is a joy.

How many of those people are 15 years old?

Apparently all of them, since they choose to get pregnant and have the kid.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: piasabird
When my daughter was 15, I did not even allow her to date or be out late at night. Sounds like a lack of parenting skills. Although if you are a single parent, you cant always be around to watch your kids 24/7.

And even if you're not a single parent, for all you know she was skipping classes to get some nookie.
There is something decidedly un-Christian about twisting the word "responsibility" to hold people accountable for things they had little-or-no control over.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: lupi
in many states a kid old enough to have a baby could be held on charges as an adult, so yes.

And in many states it's also considered rape to have any kind of sex with any kid the ages we are talking about, regardless of choices, consent, the use of force or lack of.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

If choice is not an issue, then the person was raped, pure and simple.

I'm starting to wonder about your interchanging uses of the words "children" and "teenagers." 8 to 12 year olds aren't having babies. I'd assume you are talking about 15-19 year olds. Those aren't children. They're not adults either. But certainly they have more capacity to make rational choices than 8-12 year olds.

Courts try to have teenagers tried as adults all the time if the crime is severe enough. Society doesn't treat age as the final excuse.

We do and should educate our children about sex and the responsibility that must accompany it. We should not educate our children about how to have sex in a manner so as to avoid the consequences, because sooner or later, condoms and other prophylactics will fail.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

in many states a kid old enough to have a baby could be held on charges as an adult, so yes.

You're a troll of the worst sort.

You say a 15-year-old could be charged/tried as an adult in some circumstances, in some states. So how many cases like that do you think there are? How many fifteen-year-olds are given the death penalty or life imprisonment? One per decade?

But you use this so-called "principle" of accountability and conclude that ALL pregnant 15-year-old girls (and let's not even consider the 11-, 12-, 13-, and 14-year-olds) should be treated as fully responsible for their pregnancy - sink or swim.

Even you cannot possibly fail to recognize how imbecilic your chain of "logic" is.

 

[piasabird]

Responsibility is tough, that is true, but everyone has to shoulder their own responsibility. If you play, you gotta pay. It is hard to say what will happen to a child born to a young girl of 15 or 16. In most states a girl could legally get an abortion. I dont agree with abortion myself, but I cant tell everyone what to do. I consider it a personal decision, but there are a lot of women who later have second thoughts or go through a lot of personal doubts and pain over this issue.

On the other hand that child may be the next Ray Charles, or Albert Einstine. Life can be a precious thing.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Responsibility is tough, that is true, but everyone has to shoulder their own responsibility. If you play, you gotta pay. It is hard to say what will happen to a child born to a young girl of 15 or 16. In most states a girl could legally get an abortion. I dont agree with abortion myself, but I cant tell everyone what to do. I consider it a personal decision, but there are a lot of women who later have second thoughts or go through a lot of personal doubts and pain over this issue.

On the other hand that child may be the next Ray Charles, or Albert Einstine. Life can be a precious thing.

. . . or Adolph Hitler, or George Bush.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Responsibility is tough, that is true, but everyone has to shoulder their own responsibility. If you play, you gotta pay. It is hard to say what will happen to a child born to a young girl of 15 or 16. In most states a girl could legally get an abortion. I dont agree with abortion myself, but I cant tell everyone what to do. I consider it a personal decision, but there are a lot of women who later have second thoughts or go through a lot of personal doubts and pain over this issue.

On the other hand that child may be the next Ray Charles, or Albert Einstine. Life can be a precious thing.

Be careful. People tend not to like a simple approach, however matter-of-fact it is.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

If choice is not an issue, then the person was raped, pure and simple.

I'm starting to wonder about your interchanging uses of the words "children" and "teenagers." 8 to 12 year olds aren't having babies. I'd assume you are talking about 15-19 year olds. Those aren't children. They're not adults either. But certainly they have more capacity to make rational choices than 8-12 year olds.

Courts try to have teenagers tried as adults all the time if the crime is severe enough. Society doesn't treat age as the final excuse.

We do and should educate our children about sex and the responsibility that must accompany it. We should not educate our children about how to have sex in a manner so as to avoid the consequences, because sooner or later, condoms and other prophylactics will fail.

I'm talking about 15-16 year olds, as from the OP.
The age of consent in your state, Louisiana, is 17. Oops! Where your "choice" now?
You are intentionally confusing the terms "responsibility" and "consequences."
I'm curious, do you also think that insurance is useless?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: piasabird
Responsibility is tough, that is true, but everyone has to shoulder their own responsibility. If you play, you gotta pay. It is hard to say what will happen to a child born to a young girl of 15 or 16. In most states a girl could legally get an abortion. I dont agree with abortion myself, but I cant tell everyone what to do. I consider it a personal decision, but there are a lot of women who later have second thoughts or go through a lot of personal doubts and pain over this issue.

On the other hand that child may be the next Ray Charles, or Albert Einstine. Life can be a precious thing.

. . . or Adolph Hitler, or George Bush.

I suppose we should kill all babies by this way of thinking.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

If choice is not an issue, then the person was raped, pure and simple.

I'm starting to wonder about your interchanging uses of the words "children" and "teenagers." 8 to 12 year olds aren't having babies. I'd assume you are talking about 15-19 year olds. Those aren't children. They're not adults either. But certainly they have more capacity to make rational choices than 8-12 year olds.

Courts try to have teenagers tried as adults all the time if the crime is severe enough. Society doesn't treat age as the final excuse.

We do and should educate our children about sex and the responsibility that must accompany it. We should not educate our children about how to have sex in a manner so as to avoid the consequences, because sooner or later, condoms and other prophylactics will fail.

I'm talking about 15-16 year olds, as from the OP.
The age of consent in your state, Louisiana, is 17. Oops! Where your "choice" now?
You are intentionally confusing the terms "responsibility" and "consequences."
I'm curious, do you also think that insurance is useless?

Please clarify the point in your age of consent argument.
How am I confusing the terms "responsibility" and "consequences"?
No, I don't think insurance is useless. Why do you ask?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: Robor

Well someone is sure full of themselves - as well as something else. :roll:

Really?

http://www.ncpa.org/iss/soc/pd100301f.html

Yes. I guess you missed it but I was referring to the pedestal you were speaking from.

By the way, did you even read that link? It does not support your argument.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Vic
The punishment is not the child. The punishment is the inadequate education that contributed to the poor choice.

The conservative spin on this one is nuts. Are you still so afraid of sex that you won't allow teenagers to be educated about it except to say "Oh no, don't do that!!"

Why not? It works for underage drinking and casual drugs. Oh wait...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Excusing rape, do teenagers make a choice when they have sex?

Choice is not of issue here. Does society hold children to the same standards of personal responsibility as it holds adults? If a child commits a crime, do we punish them just as severely as we do adults? Or do we not treat them more leniently?

This little obtuse game isn't going well for you.

Why do we even bother to have education at all? There's no need to focus on it . Why don't we just tell our children to sink or swim?

If choice is not an issue, then the person was raped, pure and simple.

I'm starting to wonder about your interchanging uses of the words "children" and "teenagers." 8 to 12 year olds aren't having babies. I'd assume you are talking about 15-19 year olds. Those aren't children. They're not adults either. But certainly they have more capacity to make rational choices than 8-12 year olds.

Courts try to have teenagers tried as adults all the time if the crime is severe enough. Society doesn't treat age as the final excuse.

We do and should educate our children about sex and the responsibility that must accompany it. We should not educate our children about how to have sex in a manner so as to avoid the consequences, because sooner or later, condoms and other prophylactics will fail.

I'm talking about 15-16 year olds, as from the OP.
The age of consent in your state, Louisiana, is 17. Oops! Where your "choice" now?
You are intentionally confusing the terms "responsibility" and "consequences."
I'm curious, do you also think that insurance is useless?

Please clarify the point in your age of consent argument.
How am I confusing the terms "responsibility" and "consequences"?
No, I don't think insurance is useless.

OMG you are stupid.

Age of consent is obvious. You keep saying, "excluding rape." Well, guess what, by your state's laws, it is ALWAYS the result of rape if a girl under the age of 17 gets pregnant.

How? That as well, is obvious. Just like how we've clearly been talking about 15-16 year-old here -- children -- and you bring up 19 year-olds in order to keep playing the responsibility card.
If you were genuinely responsible, you would be interested in trying to help your fellow human beings, instead of pulling a cold-shoulder "accept the consequences" card to undereducated children. Seriously, you are a hypocritical asshole.
And finally, insurance can "fail" too. No one wants teenage children to have sex, much less more often. But we do want to be the helpful adults here, and not just callous pricks like you propose.
And if it seems to you like I'm being a bit harsh, it's because I can't believe how you stack the deck against the kids here. We don't tell them about sex (except to tell them not to have), we don't allow them access to any of the tools to prevent the consequences of sex, and then when the inevitable happens, you'd just have us slap the scarlet letter on them (for the sake of the baby of course). And all in the name of pious morality and responsibility. What a crock of shit.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: piasabird
Responsibility is tough, that is true, but everyone has to shoulder their own responsibility. If you play, you gotta pay. It is hard to say what will happen to a child born to a young girl of 15 or 16. In most states a girl could legally get an abortion. I dont agree with abortion myself, but I cant tell everyone what to do. I consider it a personal decision, but there are a lot of women who later have second thoughts or go through a lot of personal doubts and pain over this issue.

On the other hand that child may be the next Ray Charles, or Albert Einstine. Life can be a precious thing.

. . . or Adolph Hitler, or George Bush.

I suppose we should kill all babies by this way of thinking.

Not at all. But it's intellectually dishonest to offer up the potential Einsteins without also allowing for the potential monsters. Odds are, that fetus, if taken to term by a typical underage mother, would be a net drain on society.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Vic
The punishment is not the child. The punishment is the inadequate education that contributed to the poor choice.

The conservative spin on this one is nuts. Are you still so afraid of sex that you won't allow teenagers to be educated about it except to say "Oh no, don't do that!!"

Why not? It works for underage drinking and casual drugs. Oh wait...

"Personal responsibility" to the moral conservative crowd is the act of sweeping all of society's problems under the proverbial rug (read: into prisons).