Obama administration to let states opt out of No Child Left Behind!

[chucky2]

I can't say it explicitly states this but I can tell you that it started when the law went into effect and has gotten progressively worse as the school/teachers push for those higher "test scores" from ALL children.

If it doesn't then I'm still not getting why average through awesome couldn't be in one class, and the students who were so far below average they couldn't remain in class wouldn't be taught in a slower class that is more specialized. I don't see the problem here...

 

[shortylickens]

someone explain why no child left behind is so bad?

It doesnt help anybody, especially the children.
All it does is punish schools already struggling to do their best in a shitty situation. They have to fudge numbers and dumb down tests in order to avoid a spanking. It actually makes the original problem even worse, its the exact opposite of what America needs.

 

[werepossum]

NCLB disincentivises advanced classes and remedial classes.

Instead of putting the smart kids in a class together and the slow kids in a class together, the schools get rid of the remedial and advanced classes and instead put everyone in the same class. That way, the averages pan out and instead of looking like there's only a couple smart classes in the school, you see everyone in the school as mediocre or worse.

This fucks over the smart kids and the mediocre kids because they have to deal with Little Johnny Aspergers standing on his desk shouting all day instead of actually learning something.

Teachers need to be evaluated on their ability to teach. This isn't a question. But you can't do that by standardized testing alone.

Teaching in the US needs to be come more focused and less "college-driven". A mechanic doesn't need to know how many theses Martin Luther nailed to the church door. I don't begrudge anyone a well-rounded education, but, come on...we're creating a generation of kids who don't even know how to change a lightbulb here and expect to make $95k right out of college with a degree in Philosphy.

NCLB addresses none of the issues with our education system. It simply masks them by reducing standards. If a 4th grader wants to take algebra and can handle it, why they fuck should they be stuck studying addition and subtraction with kids who never learned to read?

Now this is a really, really big problem. There should definitely be advanced classes, and there should also be remedial classes, if only because not every child learns the same way. Instead we have some kids who have no clue what's going on and others who are bored out of their minds.

This is a mixture of liberalism's "everyone is the same and interchangeable" philosophy and conservative level funding - probably the worst compromise possible.

If it doesn't then I'm still not getting why average through awesome couldn't be in one class, and the students who were so far below average they couldn't remain in class wouldn't be taught in a slower class that is more specialized. I don't see the problem here...

You could do that, but very few school districts have the funding to bring the slower classes up to an acceptable level. It's really difficult and labor-intensive to teach children with Asperger's or mild autism or other learning and/or behavior problems up to an acceptable level. That's why they are combined. Instead of intentionally doing triage, accepting that some children will likely never be college graduates, school districts combine them all and hope to squeak by.

 

[chucky2]

Because regardless those slow learners won't be proficient and that will reflect against their teachers. The advanded kids are advanced for a reason, they are above proficient. Requiring 100% proficiency isn't possible and will never work.

This I can agree with, unless the test is testing what should be 3rd grade math against 4th graders. If that's the case, then every 4th grader should be passing the test. I guess I'd have to really go learn a lot more about NCLB. I'm for testing the students though. I know so many many many many people that got pushed through school I'd deem it as criminal in how the education system - and their parents - failed them.

Letting acedemia call all the shots is not a good idea. They simply can't be trusted.

 

[woolfe9999]

NCLB mandates this?

It doesn't mandate getting rid of special ed, per se. It's a consequence of the exclusive reliance on every child having to pass the same minimum standard. It says, don't teach kids at their appropriate level: remedial, average, advanced. Teach them all to the same minimum standard. It's a waste of resources to have special ed classes when those kids have to be taught to pass the same standardized test as everyone else. So everyone gets dumped into the same class, and more advanced kids get dragged down.

- wolf

 

[Engineer]

If it doesn't then I'm still not getting why average through awesome couldn't be in one class, and the students who were so far below average they couldn't remain in class wouldn't be taught in a slower class that is more specialized. I don't see the problem here...

Like I said, I don't know the specifics enough to say. I just know that kids who can't wipe their own rears (literally wearing diapers) are in classrooms with "regular" kids and, at least here, MUST remain there. I, and many people around here, may be confusing that with NCLB, but that's the way it is and it all started when that was passed.

Maybe an "unintended" side effect...don't know.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Some brainiac felt that by sticking all the kids at the same level; the slow learners would be helped by interaction with the smarter children.

They do not have the funding to support 3 levels of teaching; so someone has to get lumped in with a lower level.

Instead, the teachers have to lower they teaching level to support the slower kids; penalizing the smarter students.

 

[werepossum]

Like I said, I don't know the specifics enough to say. I just know that kids who can't wipe their own rears (literally wearing diapers) are in classrooms with "regular" kids and, at least here, MUST remain there. I, and many people around here, may be confusing that with NCLB, but that's the way it is and it all started when that was passed.

Maybe an "unintended" side effect...don't know.

We have that too. I'm not sure either if it's NCLB or something like ADA, but I've been told that if a parent insists that their child be mainstreamed, no matter how ill-suited, all the school system can do is mainstream that child. The school system has to provide the specialists for the child, too, like interpreters, readers or hearers for the blind or deaf, nurses, and nurses' aids (for changing diapers.) It's very expensive to do that anyway, but much, much cheaper if you can provide such specialized care and teaching at one or a few centralized schools. If you have to provide those services for each child at whatever local school to which he or she is most proximate, it gets REALLY expensive. A dozen children without bowel control would need one or two diaper changers in one CDC class, but a dozen if they are in individual classes. Plus it's rather disruptive to the class if a child needs one or two adults in attendance.

Luckily most parents recognize that a concentration of specialists provides better results than merely insisting there is nothing wrong with Junior.

 

[woolfe9999]

We have that too. I'm not sure either if it's NCLB or something like ADA, but I've been told that if a parent insists that their child be mainstreamed, no matter how ill-suited, all the school system can do is mainstream that child. The school system has to provide the specialists for the child, too, like interpreters, readers or hearers for the blind or deaf, nurses, and nurses' aids (for changing diapers.) It's very expensive to do that anyway, but much, much cheaper if you can provide such specialized care and teaching at one or a few centralized schools. If you have to provide those services for each child at whatever local school to which he or she is most proximate, it gets REALLY expensive. A dozen children without bowel control would need one or two diaper changers in one CDC class, but a dozen if they are in individual classes. Plus it's rather disruptive to the class if a child needs one or two adults in attendance.

Luckily most parents recognize that a concentration of specialists provides better results than merely insisting there is nothing wrong with Junior.

Yeah that's messed up. Unfortunately many parents tend not to be objective about their kids. Oh sure, Johnny has gotten 0.00 on every test he's ever taken, pees on the front lawn instead of in the toilet, and poisoned the neighbor's cat, but he's just having a few problems adjusting. It's tough being a kid.

There has to be a limit on what demands a parent can make on a public school system that we all pay for.

- wolf

 

[chucky2]

It doesn't mandate getting rid of special ed, per se. It's a consequence of the exclusive reliance on every child having to pass the same minimum standard. It says, don't teach kids at their appropriate level: remedial, average, advanced. Teach them all to the same minimum standard. It's a waste of resources to have special ed classes when those kids have to be taught to pass the same standardized test as everyone else. So everyone gets dumped into the same class, and more advanced kids get dragged down.

- wolf

Like I said, I don't know the specifics enough to say. I just know that kids who can't wipe their own rears (literally wearing diapers) are in classrooms with "regular" kids and, at least here, MUST remain there. I, and many people around here, may be confusing that with NCLB, but that's the way it is and it all started when that was passed.

Maybe an "unintended" side effect...don't know.

Some brainiac felt that by sticking all the kids at the same level; the slow learners would be helped by interaction with the smarter children.

They do not have the funding to support 3 levels of teaching; so someone has to get lumped in with a lower level.

Instead, the teachers have to lower they teaching level to support the slower kids; penalizing the smarter students.

If we get rid of NCLB, or at least in this case allow means for it not to be followed, then the same problem would remain of not being able to fund lets say 3 seperate classes.

So how is acedemia going to solve that if they couldn't solve it under NCLB?

 

[werepossum]

Yeah that's messed up. Unfortunately many parents tend not to be objective about their kids. Oh sure, Johnny has gotten 0.00 on every test he's ever taken, pees on the front lawn instead of in the toilet, and poisoned the neighbor's cat, but he's just having a few problems adjusting. It's tough being a kid.

There has to be a limit on what demands a parent can make on a public school system that we all pay for.

- wolf

On the question of how many branches of government we have, the correct answer is (C), three. Your child smeared feces across all the answer boxes. We're having a hard time deciding which one he intended to mark . . .

The bitch of it is that some of these kids, if in intensive programs, would probably be diagnosed as dyslexic or something else treatable and would do better. Even the ones who are pretty much hopeless would at least not be disrupting others' education, and might benefit much more from learning to make change or tell time than from being exposed to American history or economics.

 

[Throckmorton]

Obama gives states more freedom from the federal gov, letting them opt out from NCLB and set their own standards... Republicans call it a power grab. ARE YOU SERIOUS, REPUBLICANS?

 

[CrackRabbit]

You have a point, but "No child left behind" was conceived and implemented because now we have children who don't have the critical thinking skills and also don't know the material. Perhaps we need to move the tests away from the multiple choice format to just blanks.

The reason behind that is that most (if not all) states had standardized testing already, with NCLB like programs at a state level. The Bush administration simply took an already not great situation and made it exponentially worse by adding completely unrealistic goals and strict enforcement on top.

 

[Engineer]

If we get rid of NCLB, or at least in this case allow means for it not to be followed, then the same problem would remain of not being able to fund lets say 3 seperate classes.

So how is acedemia going to solve that if they couldn't solve it under NCLB?

Why should the school system be forced to take the "special needs kids" that are so bad that they cannot function at all? Why should teachers be forced to change diapers, regardless if it's an exceptional class or a "special education" class? Why should they be forced to have separate classes for children that have no earthly idea where they are or are violent or completely uncontrollable?

 

[chucky2]

They shouldn't. Never said they did.

 

[Engineer]

They shouldn't. Never said they did.

I'm assuming that one of those "3 separate classes" that you were talking about included one for the kinds of kids that I'm listing? If not, I'm lost as to what you are talking about.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Thank god, I'm fairly certain no one would believe the stories my wife had of what the high school she was working at was doing to fudge numbers so they wouldn't get punished. She's moved on to a somewhat better school now so it's not as much of a concern to her personally, but it's always nice to see some of the devastation Bush wrought on us is getting reversed.

 

[chucky2]

I'm assuming that one of those "3 separate classes" that you were talking about included one for the kinds of kids that I'm listing? If not, I'm lost as to what you are talking about.

The lowest of the 3 seperate classes would be your F and D students, along with students with some kind of learning difficulty that needed the extra help. If you don't want to do that, fine, but you're going to have to make those kids at least meet the minimums somehow. Telling them, 'Sorry, u suck be dumb' isn't an option.

Chuck