Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted...........

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,745
42
91
Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in their--or at least their cell phones'--whereabouts

I personally don't care, but I am curious to see bu bu bu bu backtracking or excuse making from Dems, and for hypocritical bashing by people who wouldn't mind if an R was President
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html

Two years ago, when the FBI was stymied by a band of armed robbers known as the "Scarecrow Bandits" that had robbed more than 20 Texas banks, it came up with a novel method of locating the thieves.

FBI agents obtained logs from mobile phone companies corresponding to what their cellular towers had recorded at the time of a dozen different bank robberies in the Dallas area. The voluminous records showed that two phones had made calls around the time of all 12 heists, and that those phones belonged to men named Tony Hewitt and Corey Duffey. A jury eventually convicted the duo of multiple bank robbery and weapons charges.

Even though police are tapping into the locations of mobile phones thousands of times a year, the legal ground rules remain unclear, and federal privacy laws written a generation ago are ambiguous at best. On Friday, the first federal appeals court to consider the topic will hear oral arguments (PDF) in a case that could establish new standards for locating wireless devices.

In that case, the Obama administration has argued that warrantless tracking is permitted because Americans enjoy no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in their--or at least their cell phones'--whereabouts. U.S. Department of Justice lawyers say that "a customer's Fourth Amendment rights are not violated when the phone company reveals to the government its own records" that show where a mobile device placed and received calls.

Those claims have alarmed the ACLU and other civil liberties groups, which have opposed the Justice Department's request and plan to tell the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia that Americans' privacy deserves more protection and judicial oversight than what the administration has proposed.

"This is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century," says Kevin Bankston, an attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who will be arguing on Friday. "If the courts do side with the government, that means that everywhere we go, in the real world and online, will be an open book to the government unprotected by the Fourth Amendment."

Not long ago, the concept of tracking cell phones would have been the stuff of spy movies. In 1998's "Enemy of the State," Gene Hackman warned that the National Security Agency has "been in bed with the entire telecommunications industry since the '40s--they've infected everything." After a decade of appearances in "24" and "Live Free or Die Hard," location-tracking has become such a trope that it was satirized in a scene with Seth Rogen from "Pineapple Express" (2008).

Once a Hollywood plot, now 'commonplace'
Whether state and federal police have been paying attention to Hollywood, or whether it was the other way around, cell phone tracking has become a regular feature in criminal investigations. It comes in two forms: police obtaining retrospective data kept by mobile providers for their own billing purposes that may not be very detailed, or prospective data that reveals the minute-by-minute location of a handset or mobile device.

Obtaining location details is now "commonplace," says Al Gidari, a partner in the Seattle offices of Perkins Coie who represents wireless carriers. "It's in every pen register order these days."

Gidari says that the Third Circuit case could have a significant impact on police investigations within the court's jurisdiction, namely Delaware, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania; it could be persuasive beyond those states. But, he cautions, "if the privacy groups win, the case won't be over. It will certainly be appealed."

CNET was the first to report on prospective tracking in a 2005 news article. In a subsequent Arizona case, agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration tracked a tractor trailer with a drug shipment through a GPS-equipped Nextel phone owned by the suspect. Texas DEA agents have used cell site information in real time to locate a Chrysler 300M driving from Rio Grande City to a ranch about 50 miles away. Verizon Wireless and T-Mobile logs showing the location of mobile phones at the time calls were placed became evidence in a Los Angeles murder trial.

And a mobile phone's fleeting connection with a remote cell tower operated by Edge Wireless is what led searchers to the family of the late James Kim, a CNET employee who died in the Oregon wilderness in 2006 after leaving a snowbound car to seek help.

"This is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century. If the courts do side with the government, that means that everywhere we go, in the real world and online, will be an open book to the government unprotected by the Fourth Amendment."
--Kevin Bankston, attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation

The way tracking works is simple: mobile phones are miniature radio transmitters and receivers. A cellular tower knows the general direction of a mobile phone (many cell sites have three antennas pointing in different directions), and if the phone is talking to multiple towers, triangulation yields a rough location fix. With this method, accuracy depends in part on the density of cell sites.

The Federal Communications Commission's "Enhanced 911" (E911) requirements allowed rough estimates to be transformed into precise coordinates. Wireless carriers using CDMA networks, such as Verizon Wireless and Sprint Nextel, tend to use embedded GPS technology to fulfill E911 requirements. AT&T and T-Mobile comply with E911 regulations using network-based technology that computes a phone's location using signal analysis and triangulation between towers.

T-Mobile, for instance, uses a GSM technology called Uplink Time Difference of Arrival, or U-TDOA, which calculates a position based on precisely how long it takes signals to reach towers. A company called TruePosition, which provides U-TDOA services to T-Mobile, boasts of "accuracy to under 50 meters" that's available "for start-of-call, midcall, or when idle" as soon as the call begins.

A 2008 court order to T-Mobile in a criminal investigation of a marriage fraud scheme, which was originally sealed and later made public, says: "T-Mobile shall disclose at such intervals and times as directed by (the Department of Homeland Security), latitude and longitude data that establishes the approximate positions of the Subject Wireless Telephone, by unobtrusively initiating a signal on its network that will enable it to determine the locations of the Subject Wireless Telephone."

'No reasonable expectation of privacy'
In the case that's before the Third Circuit on Friday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, initially said it needed historical (meaning stored, not future) phone location information because a set of suspects "use their wireless telephones to arrange meetings and transactions in furtherance of their drug trafficking activities."

U.S. Magistrate Judge Lisa Lenihan in Pennsylvania denied the Justice Department's attempt to obtain stored location data without a search warrant; prosecutors had invoked a different legal procedure. Lenihan's ruling, in effect, would require police to obtain a search warrant based on probable cause--a more privacy-protective standard.

Lenihan's opinion (PDF)--which, in an unusual show of solidarity, was signed by four other magistrate judges--noted that location information can reveal sensitive information such as health treatments, financial difficulties, marital counseling, and extra-marital affairs.

In its appeal to the Third Circuit, the Justice Department claims that Lenihan's opinion "contains, and relies upon, numerous errors" and should be overruled. In addition to a search warrant not being necessary, prosecutors said, because location "records provide only a very general indication of a user's whereabouts at certain times in the past, the requested cell-site records do not implicate a Fourth Amendment privacy interest."

The Obama administration is not alone in making this argument. U.S. District Judge William Pauley, a Clinton appointee in New York, wrote in a 2009 opinion that a defendant in a drug trafficking case, Jose Navas, "did not have a legitimate expectation of privacy in the cell phone" location. That's because Navas only used the cell phone "on public thoroughfares en route from California to New York" and "if Navas intended to keep the cell phone's location private, he simply could have turned it off."

(Most cases have involved the ground rules for tracking cell phone users prospectively, and judges have disagreed over what legal rules apply. Only a minority has sided with the Justice Department, however.)

Cellular providers tend not to retain moment-by-moment logs of when each mobile device contacts the tower, in part because there's no business reason to store the data, and in part because the storage costs would be prohibitive. They do, however, keep records of what tower is in use when a call is initiated or answered--and those records are generally stored for six months to a year, depending on the company.

Verizon Wireless keeps "phone records including cell site location for 12 months," Drew Arena, Verizon's vice president and associate general counsel for law enforcement compliance, said at a federal task force meeting in Washington, D.C. last week. Arena said the company keeps "phone bills without cell site location for seven years," and stores SMS text messages for only a very brief time.

Gidari, the Seattle attorney, said that wireless carriers have recently extended how long they store this information. "Prior to a year or two ago when location-based services became more common, if it were 30 days it would be surprising," he said.

The ACLU, EFF, the Center for Democracy and Technology, and University of San Francisco law professor Susan Freiwald argue that the wording of the federal privacy law in question allows judges to require the level of proof required for a search warrant "before authorizing the disclosure of particularly novel or invasive types of information." In addition, they say, Americans do not "knowingly expose their location information and thereby surrender Fourth Amendment protection whenever they turn on or use their cell phones."

"The biggest issue at stake is whether or not courts are going to accept the government's minimal view of what is protected by the Fourth Amendment," says EFF's Bankston. "The government is arguing that based on precedents from the 1970s, any record held by a third party about us, no matter how invasively collected, is not protected by the Fourth Amendment."
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
10
0
Somebody needs to slap these assholes across the face with a copy of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Preferably made of metal.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Location of a phone call should not have an expectation of privacy.
A land line is a fixed point associated with a number.
A cell phone call should be treated the same.

Content of the phone conversation (cell and/or landline) should be controlled as protected unless authorized warrant to listen in.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
When you sign up for cell phones, you agree to be tracked and wave the right to privacy. If you want privacy, don't buy and use a cell phone. Simple as that.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
When you sign up for cell phones, you agree to be tracked and wave the right to privacy. If you want privacy, don't buy and use a cell phone. Simple as that.

What he said.

What do the folks arguing that this is a privacy issue think about an informer seeing you in public or even in your own house, and telling the authorities where you are?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,279
36,397
136
When you sign up for cell phones, you agree to be tracked and wave the right to privacy. If you want privacy, don't buy and use a cell phone. Simple as that.


This.

Kinda applies to GPS units as well...
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,361
2
0
Turn off tracking on the phone... I don't have a problem with this, I do have a problem with warrant-less call monitoring (ie - Echelon) that goes on. But, Mr. Bush didn't care and neither does Mr. Obama, I don't think it will stop any time soon.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Turn off tracking on the phone... I don't have a problem with this, I do have a problem with warrant-less call monitoring (ie - Echelon) that goes on. But, Mr. Bush didn't care and neither does Mr. Obama, I don't think it will stop any time soon.

Again, if you are in a public place and are talking, do you expect privacy? No. If you want privacy go into your home. Perfectly private by the law.

Same thing with phones. Want one? Agree to be monitored. Don't want to be monitored? learn to communicate face to face more often.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
If you are the paranoid type, buy a Trac phone.

If you are the really paranoid type, you should most likely be more concerned with the advancement of RFID .....





--
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
Again, if you are in a public place and are talking, do you expect privacy? No. If you want privacy go into your home. Perfectly private by the law.

Same thing with phones. Want one? Agree to be monitored. Don't want to be monitored? learn to communicate face to face more often.

LOL, sure, what's next? "if you don't want the govt watching your every move, then stay locked up inside your house?" Maybe it's normal for you if the govt invades your privacy, but I'm not a fan of a fascist nanny state, and it sure as hell isn't normal to me.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
When you sign up for cell phones, you agree to be tracked and wave the right to privacy. If you want privacy, don't buy and use a cell phone. Simple as that.
No. The government should not have free reign to that information without a warrant. Having a conversation on your cell phone in public you should expect no privacy.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
No. The government should not have free reign to that information without a warrant. Having a conversation on your cell phone in public you should expect no privacy.

I didn't say conversation, I said tracking.

So the next time you are in a car accident and can manage to dial 911 on your cell phone without being able to speak into it, I hope no ambulance finds your ass then. Can't have one without the other eh?

Next time your kid gets lost with a cell phone on him/her I hope you never find them.

I am being sarcastic incase anyone's meter is broken.

I believe warrants for conversation, but tracking is another matter.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
For the sake of discussing the principle, what if the only residential phone available were a cell phone? What if the government had all cars have GPS trackers that stored this information?

What if the government had tracking chips as a mandatory, otherwise harmless implant in everyone's body?

Benefits include: great improvement in freeing the innocent and finding the guilty; finding kidnap victims/missing people; finding fugutives; tracking down terrorists connections/whereabouts.

How say people on the tradeoff between the 'iiberty' of the government not knowing where they go versus the increased 'security' when they do?

THe operating principle for some seems to "we acknowledge the government's right to find out this information to the best of its ability in all those cases, as long as it isn't very good at it."

Is anyone denying the government the right to search for a fugitive, a kidnap victim, using interrogation, using traffic cameras, using credit card receipts?

Could this be privatized so spouses could track each other as well as their children? So employers could track where there employees are (during work hours)? You called in sick and are out saling?

The constitution seems to protect against this well for people who don't break the law. But how about anyone convicted of a crime? Arrested? Employers requiring it? Parents getting it for children?

It would be a dream come true for many 'good' purposes - and horrible for people who value the privacy of their whereabouts.

I wonder if the President wears or has implanted a tracking device, 'just in case'? Certainly, his whereabouts are tracked 24x7.

Would some 'we could have prevented a terrorist attack' story persuade the public to accept this?

How about requiring it of foreign visitors?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
For the sake of discussing the principle, what if the only residential phone available were a cell phone? What if the government had all cars have GPS trackers that stored this information?

What if the government had tracking chips as a mandatory, otherwise harmless implant in everyone's body?

Benefits include: great improvement in freeing the innocent and finding the guilty; finding kidnap victims/missing people; finding fugutives; tracking down terrorists connections/whereabouts.

<snip>

Wow Craig, you are off in the deep end all by yourself. Hope a shark bites.

Back to reality, it's one thing to voluntarily carry a tracking device. It's something else entirely to have it forced on you.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,279
36,397
136
Turn off tracking on the phone... I don't have a problem with this, I do have a problem with warrant-less call monitoring (ie - Echelon) that goes on. But, Mr. Bush didn't care and neither does Mr. Obama, I don't think it will stop any time soon.


Um, what?

The different methods used by different companies for said tracking would seem to imply there is no uniform method the end-user can use to enforce their Constitutional Right to Stealth.

Paranoid? Just uncomfortable with it? Dabbling in crime? Just disconnect the phone's battery between calls. Voila.
 
Last edited:

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,442
7,506
136
Again, if you are in a public place and are talking, do you expect privacy? No. If you want privacy go into your home. Perfectly private by the law.

Same thing with phones. Want one? Agree to be monitored. Don't want to be monitored? learn to communicate face to face more often.

So you argue in favor that our Bill of Rights no longer applies to the modern world. Either we live like the Amish, or we live like Soviet Russia?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Wow Craig, you are off in the deep end all by yourself. Hope a shark bites.

Back to reality, it's one thing to voluntarily carry a tracking device. It's something else entirely to have it forced on you.

You're sure hostile today, atacking people for discussing an issue. Bury your head in the sand, as you cut out my comments there's no real risk of the government forcing this on everyone to make your straw man, cut you ignroe the question of other scenarios such as mandatory tracking for people on probation, employer-required tracking, parents having tracking for their children. No, just attacking anyone for discussing these possible changes.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
I didn't say conversation, I said tracking.

So the next time you are in a car accident and can manage to dial 911 on your cell phone without being able to speak into it, I hope no ambulance finds your ass then. Can't have one without the other eh?

Next time your kid gets lost with a cell phone on him/her I hope you never find them.

I am being sarcastic incase anyone's meter is broken.

I believe warrants for conversation, but tracking is another matter.
I'm including tracking as well. If the government wants to track my movements 24/7 using my cell phone location, get a warrant.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
One interesting thing - there's a lot of concern about tracking, but the President can now order the killing of a US citizen without any review outside the executive branch. No trial, no due process, no check.

Proponents will defend this by claiming there are 'criterion', that it requires certain tihngs be met to get approved, but the bottom line is all these restrictions are within the executive authority of the president.

Glenn Greenwald has witten about this, but it's hardly getting a lot of press, a lot of protest from the public.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,361
2
0
Again, if you are in a public place and are talking, do you expect privacy? No. If you want privacy go into your home. Perfectly private by the law.

Same thing with phones. Want one? Agree to be monitored. Don't want to be monitored? learn to communicate face to face more often.

I guess you didn't read my post.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
For the sake of discussing the principle, what if the only residential phone available were a cell phone? What if the government had all cars have GPS trackers that stored this information?

What if the government had tracking chips as a mandatory, otherwise harmless implant in everyone's body?

Benefits include: great improvement in freeing the innocent and finding the guilty; finding kidnap victims/missing people; finding fugutives; tracking down terrorists connections/whereabouts.

How say people on the tradeoff between the 'iiberty' of the government not knowing where they go versus the increased 'security' when they do?

THe operating principle for some seems to "we acknowledge the government's right to find out this information to the best of its ability in all those cases, as long as it isn't very good at it."

Is anyone denying the government the right to search for a fugitive, a kidnap victim, using interrogation, using traffic cameras, using credit card receipts?

Could this be privatized so spouses could track each other as well as their children? So employers could track where there employees are (during work hours)? You called in sick and are out saling?

The constitution seems to protect against this well for people who don't break the law. But how about anyone convicted of a crime? Arrested? Employers requiring it? Parents getting it for children?

It would be a dream come true for many 'good' purposes - and horrible for people who value the privacy of their whereabouts.

I wonder if the President wears or has implanted a tracking device, 'just in case'? Certainly, his whereabouts are tracked 24x7.

Would some 'we could have prevented a terrorist attack' story persuade the public to accept this?

How about requiring it of foreign visitors?

What is wrong with requiring the government to get a warrant to do the things you talk about? If the process takes too long then we can fix it so that the warrants can be fast tracked but giving the government the ability to track anyone at anytime is way over the line. Giving them the ability to listen to any private discussion without a warrant is flat out illegal, regardless if it is a cell phone or a landline. My conversation isn't "public" just because I used my cellphone in my house instead of a landline.

You posted a lot of potential positives that could come from this but what about the potential negatives? How would you feel if the neocons had full control over the tracking system as well as the ability to record any and every conversation you make on your cell phone?