Obama admin. issues 5.5M work permits to non-citizens

[Matt1970]

A hypothetical guy who could go back to school to be an engineer, but is instead sitting in his current dead end job until an illegal takes it?
That's not the guy I worry about. That's a loser.

It happens all the time.

 

[senseamp]

It happens all the time.

So I should fear that an illegal will cause an fellow American who is working a dead end job to go back to school, become more productive, and realize his full potential, because him realizing his full potential may put him in competition with me? That's a zero-sum loser mentality. You are a sad person if you spend your life thinking like that, hoping that your fellow citizens stay down where they are now and not become the best they can be, just because of your own fear for your job.

 

[realibrad]

It all boils down to 1 question to me.

Should a person whom is willing to live a lesser lifestyle be allowed to compete for a position that another person currently has, but does not want to live a lesser lifestyle.

The labor market does not operate in a vacuum. If a cheaper worker replaces a more expensive worker, the difference does not simply go to the employer. In a competitive market, employers are pushed to hire talent, which pushes the cost of labor higher. The laborers whom compete for a job will try and undercut the competition, because having a low income is better than not having an income. Pushing up the price further limits the number of jobs in the market, which creates more competition among labor, which creates more people fighting for the same position.

It seems like people are arguing that competition needs to be kept out, so the natives can have a monopoly on the open positions. It also seems to cause more outsourcing, which is a much greater loss of jobs.

Economics, shit is complicated.

 

[Matt1970]

So I should fear that an illegal will cause an fellow American who is working a dead end job to go back to school, become more productive, and realize his full potential, because him realizing his full potential may put him in competition with me? That's a zero-sum loser mentality. You are a sad person if you spend your life thinking like that, hoping that your fellow citizens stay down where they are now and not become the best they can be, just because of your own fear for your job.

Ya pal, I spend my life thinking that. And nowhere in anything I said did I say I hope people don't become the best they can be. You are a sad little man for suggesting that.

 

[Subyman]

It all boils down to 1 question to me.

Should a person whom is willing to live a lesser lifestyle be allowed to compete for a position that another person currently has, but does not want to live a lesser lifestyle.

The labor market does not operate in a vacuum. If a cheaper worker replaces a more expensive worker, the difference does not simply go to the employer. In a competitive market, employers are pushed to hire talent, which pushes the cost of labor higher. The laborers whom compete for a job will try and undercut the competition, because having a low income is better than not having an income. Pushing up the price further limits the number of jobs in the market, which creates more competition among labor, which creates more people fighting for the same position.

It seems like people are arguing that competition needs to be kept out, so the natives can have a monopoly on the open positions. It also seems to cause more outsourcing, which is a much greater loss of jobs.

Economics, shit is complicated.

I don't think it has as much to do with an illegal being willing to work for cheaper as it does them saturating the job market, which then pushes the salary down. Then you have to look at individual job markets to see if there is a need for more workers in that sector. The kind of work that illegals are seeking are growing sectors or sectors which people are retiring at high rates. Electricians, plumbers, dry wallers, and other trades are poised to need a lot more labor as people in their 50's begin to retire out. The influx of illegals may be exactly what we need.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/20...loom-as-most-in-demand-group-of-workers-ages/

 

[senseamp]

Ya pal, I spend my life thinking that.

If you don't, then stop peddling that mindset to others. It's loser mentality.

 

[boomerang]

Economics, shit is complicated.

Yup, but there is so much more to the issue than that. Should a nations higher priority be to its own citizens or the citizens of other nations? Seems like a no-brainer to me. We can't keep operating the United States on feelings and especially so when we're operating to the extent we are running deficits and on borrowed money. [FONT=&quot]The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else[FONT=&quot].[FONT=&quot] What[FONT=&quot]'s the tipping point and more importantly, how will we know when we[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]'ve[/FONT] reached it[/FONT]?
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]

 

[realibrad]

I don't think it has as much to do with an illegal being willing to work for cheaper as it does them saturating the job market, which then pushes the salary down. Then you have to look at individual job markets to see if there is a need for more workers in that sector. The kind of work that illegals are seeking are growing sectors or sectors which people are retiring at high rates. Electricians, plumbers, dry wallers, and other trades are poised to need a lot more labor as people in their 50's begin to retire out. The influx of illegals may be exactly what we need.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/20...loom-as-most-in-demand-group-of-workers-ages/

Before we go any further. You are wrong. It has everything to do with people willing to work for cheaper. If immigrants were coming in, but were only willing to work for twice as much as current labor at the same amount of productivity, then no jobs would be lost.
The only way salaries get pushed down, is if someone is willing to take less money.

 

[Matt1970]

If you don't, then stop peddling that mindset to others. It's loser mentality.

Just don't cry to me when your job los can be tied to a massive influx of cheap labor.

 

[senseamp]

Just don't cry to me when your job los can be tied to a massive influx of cheap labor.

Why would there be job loss with cheaper labor? Cheaper labor would lead to higher demand for it, and increase number of jobs.

 

[rudeguy]

Why would there be job loss with cheaper labor? Cheaper labor would lead to higher demand for it, and increase number of jobs.

OK great!

Lets get rid of the janitors making $70k/year working for the government and replace them with $30k/year illegals.

 

[Subyman]

Before we go any further. You are wrong. It has everything to do with people willing to work for cheaper. If immigrants were coming in, but were only willing to work for twice as much as current labor at the same amount of productivity, then no jobs would be lost.
The only way salaries get pushed down, is if someone is willing to take less money.

They go hand in hand. No one is wrong here, its about focusing on the issue. I never said people willing to work for cheaper isn't the issue, my post focuses on the effect of that.

 

[senseamp]

OK great!

Lets get rid of the janitors making $70k/year working for the government and replace them with $30k/year illegals.

Fine by me. I don't really care who cleaned the toilet when I go to the DMV, as long as it's clean. Anything else?

 

[realibrad]

Yup, but there is so much more to the issue than that. Should a nations higher priority be to its own citizens or the citizens of other nations? Seems like a no-brainer to me. We can't keep operating the United States on feelings and especially so when we're operating to the extent we are running deficits and on borrowed money. [FONT=&quot]The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else[FONT=&quot].[FONT=&quot] What[FONT=&quot]'s the tipping point and more importantly, how will we know when we[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]'ve[/FONT] reached it[/FONT]?
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]

Not a no-brainer. If the cost of paying off people to not attack is cheaper than war, it would be better to pay them off.

Shit is still complex lol.

As for running on feelings, well its how people work. You have to go to an economy with the forces you have, and not the forces you want. I can explain to people how supply and demand works, but they feel like its wrong. Truthiness is a bitch to argue against.

 

[realibrad]

They go hand in hand. No one is wrong here, its about focusing on the issue. I never said people willing to work for cheaper isn't the issue, my post focuses on the effect of that.

I don't think it has as much to do with an illegal being willing to work for cheaper as it does them saturating the job market, which then pushes the salary down.

The implication of your statement is that the price of labor is not being pushed down by people willing to work for less, but because there are more people trying to work. That is wrong. There is not any ambiguity on that really.

You have the presupposition of competition meaning cheaper labor, but then seem to have forgot that, and said you dont think it has much to do with it, when in reality its 100% of the issue.

 

[Matt1970]

Why would there be job loss with cheaper labor? Cheaper labor would lead to higher demand for it, and increase number of jobs.

Do you even understand how the economy works?

 

[sm625]

But instead of giving work to citizens, our president decided to give work to people which aren't citizens and have no right to live in our country... Why?

Because enough people were dumb enough to vote for him?

These workers tend to apply downward pressure on wages, which is required in order for all the Fed crazy money printing for the rich to not have an inflationary impact.

This is what its all about:

Maseratis and Rolls Royces and Teslas for the rich connected folks, $7000 a year healthcare deductibles, $4000 per year tuition bumps, and of course 10 year 14% car loans for the dumbed down overfluoridated masses who voted for Obama.

 

[realibrad]

Do you even understand how the economy works?

Well, it depends on why the price got cheaper.

If the price for labor dropped, because the demand went down, then no, the demand would not go up with the cheaper wages.

But, if wages went down because of efficiency gains, then consumption may very well go up. If the cost of consumption went down, and there was demand for more of something at a lower price point, then its quite possible he could be right.

 

[senseamp]

Because enough people were dumb enough to vote for him?

These workers tend to apply downward pressure on wages, which is required in order for all the Fed crazy money printing for the rich to not have an inflationary impact.

This is what its all about:

Maseratis and Rolls Royces and Teslas for the rich connected folks, $7000 a year healthcare deductibles, $4000 per year tuition bumps, and of course 10 year 14% car loans for the dumbed down overfluoridated masses who voted for Obama.

Love these class warfare posts from the right. :thumbsup:
I guess it's starting to sink in with the useful idiots that it's not ever going to trickle down

 

[senseamp]

Do you even understand how the economy works?

 

[Fern]

Day laborer, maid, nanny, farm worker, etc. Mostly menial labor. Some will go further, good for them.
Truck drivers will probably be replaced by self driving technologies, so they should fear us Silicon Valley engineers, not some illegal kid.

various types light manufacturing employees
Cable installation (I mean trenching and laying fiber etc.)
Carpenters
plumbers
Roofers
Stone masons
Cement, both vertical and horizontal
Sheetrock
Painters
Restaurant, owners, chefs, waitstaff, etc.
mechanics
Highway construction
landscaping
gov office workers (DHS, welfare, food stamps etc)(if some English language skills)
County and city maintenance, public works dept
Parks & Rec employees


That's just what I've personally witnessed. No doubt I'm forgetting some.

If you think they're mostly nannies and fruit pickers you need to get out more, or your area is much different than mine.

Fern

 

[Subyman]

various types light manufacturing employees
Cable installation (I mean trenching and laying fiber etc.)
Carpenters
plumbers
Roofers
Stone masons
Cement, both vertical and horizontal
Sheetrock
Painters
Restaurant, owners, chefs, waitstaff, etc.
mechanics
Highway construction
landscaping
gov office workers (DHS, welfare, food stamps etc)(if some English language skills)
County and city maintenance, public works dept
Parks & Rec employees


That's just what I've personally witnessed. No doubt I'm forgetting some.

If you think they're mostly nannies and fruit pickers you need to get out more, or your area is much different than mine.

Fern

Its no use. I've pointed that out to him many times and he ends up going off on a tangent.

 

[shortylickens]

Only if the market will bear them earning middle class wages.

Not all of us can be rich ivy league liberals sitting around fuckin off with money our parents earned.

 

[shortylickens]

Love these class warfare posts from the right. :thumbsup:
I guess it's starting to sink in with the useful idiots that it's not ever going to trickle down

Citing "trickle down" as an argument is so you can keep asking something stupid and avoiding the logical argument entirely. It's the same as bashing anti-vaxxers.

 

[JockoJohnson]

Lol, when are you fools going to realize senseamp is trolling all you people? He isn't really as stupid as he is portraying so stop debating him. You are only feeding the troll.