O.K. time for in depth disscution: marijuana legalize or criminalize?

[apoppin]

Thie is for the religious fanatics so against marijuana for Biblical reasons: "I have given every green herb for food" (Genesis 1:30)

Now marijuana has been used by humans as long as there were humans. It is usually smoked, but can certainly be eaten as food, as an HERB.

It is a medicinal plant of a very high order. It is useful for so much besides it's drug effect. It is used for fiber (paper, rope and cloth), oil (cooking and eating and paints) as well as medicine (pain/depression/and?).

It is so obvious NO ONE against legalizing or decriminalizing it has ANY RATIONAL argument, beside the "official" US Government scare hysteria propaganda (which has been completely debunked).

 

[DABANSHEE]

"bigvince, thanks for the person insult. But I think it's you who is misinformed and uneducated. Here is a list of the effects of marijuana taken from the encyclopedia britanica:"

Ah Jellyfish, seeing you had to look up the subject in an encyclopedia, to have any idea what you are talking about maybe you should listen to people who have first hand knowledge of the subject. The fact is, like most mainstream media, the encyclopedia you quoted from has exagerated things totally out of proportion. I'm sure 99.99% of people with first hand knowledge of the subject would tell you that reports of tripping-grass are the sort of thing 'Sceptics United' would investigate. Because the fact is such tripping grass is in all practicle terms a myth - dope dealers will boast about those 'purples heads', they just sold out of, drunks in pups will go on about this tripping-grass they grew 15 years ago. All that encyclopedia is doing is taking such eroneous tales & reporting them as gosbal.

I really think you should stick to posting on subjects you know something about. All you posts in this thread indicate that you have know nothing about this subject. Consequently you're just rehashing all you've heard from the sensatiionalist media, the kids at school, warnings from your parents/teachers/govt & what politicians say to appear tough on drugs.

"You're a fool, and it's showing. I've never done any drug in my life, but I still defend others right to do so."

Have you ever had a beer Boberfett? because if you have ever had a beer, then you have 'done' drugs. Because the fact is, alcohol is a drug. Its morre toxic than heroin (have you ever seen anyone who has 'wet brain syndrome') & harder to widthdraw from too, even though it takes quite an effort to get addicted to it. It does happen, I use to live with some who would have the shakes every morning, till he had his first drink.

 

[JellyBaby]

DABUTTSHEE, I referenced the encyclopedia to bring credibility into the equation and proof of pot's true effects. If you feel the publishers of Encyclopedia Britanic are in error, take it up with them. You'll also need to contact the American Journal of Medicene as well as hundreds if not thousands of other sources to have their facts corrected as well. Personally, I give far more credibility to published sources than I do to a couple of ex-pot users and a few more current users.

 

[apoppin]

JellyBaby, you really haven't a clue. You should quit while you're way behind.

 

[JellyBaby]

apoppin what specifically don't I have a clue on? Please enlighten me. I'm completely mystified here!

Red Dawn,
<<Look Jellybaby, I'm a little tired of you thinking that you know more about everything than anybody >>

I do not believe that. This is in your mind and not mine. What was I called on btw? Where exactly am I so dead wrong?

<< Where you ever came up with the Killer Beez Scenario is beyond me. >>

It started as a simple joke which somebody else took out of context of course. Still, it's possible someone who took pot with a high THC concentration could hallucinate and see something that isn't there. What's your point?

<< Like others here I believe that the war on Drugs is a losing battle >>

I have said the same thing several times.

<< We need to be serious about this issue and we need to start right away. >>

This is the first intelligent thing I've heard you say in this threat. Congratulations. I'm just sorry it took so long for you.

<< Also by legalizing drugs we will be taking the money out of the hands of the Drug Kingpins and the Street Gangsta's. >>

That's believable but what makes you think private drug businesses and illegal sources won't co-exist? The entire thing hinges on whether legitimate sources can undercut the illegitimate. So far nobody has even outlined a plan to accomplish this. Much of my argument is on this fact along. It's fine to say we lost the drug war. But it's stupid to simply legalize drugs to see if it works.

<< you have been helping make the streets and the neighborhoods more dangerous. >>

That's a pretty bold claim to accuse me of making things worse. Of course you're dead wrong but I'll await your proof.


It seems like folks know what's currently wrong and may also envision a future (where pot is legal) that's better for everyone. The question is how to get to there from here.

 

[apoppin]

Jellybaby, I don't know where to start.

You keep quoting popular misconceptions as though they were gospel truth. Let's start with your first post:


<< Kids would flock to the stuff. >>



They do NOW here in the USA. In countries that have decriminalized, less youngsters smoke pot.



<< I hope you aren't married and don't have children. If you don't like what I have to say then p!ss off. >>





<< trip down to Jamaica where it grow on da trees >>



Rude and ignorant.

ALL your comments. To the last one from the Encyclopedia which is a rehash ) ) of goverment BS propaganda.

 

[JellyBaby]

*sigh* looks like we go round and round again until someone gets tired of this.

apoppin,

<< They do NOW here in the USA. In countries that have decriminalized, less youngsters smoke pot. >>

So because children flock to drugs now, we should make access to drugs even easier? What kind of logic is that?

<< Rude and ignorant. ALL your comments. >>

You take posts I meant in jest and take them out of context to serve our own purposes. Can you come up with any one thing substantialthat I said that is incorrect?

<< To the last one from the Encyclopedia which is a rehash ( ) of goverment BS propaganda. >>

Can you site proof Britanica is incorrect? Why don't I hear a public outcry of all this &quot;BS propaganda&quot;? How is it possible hundres of doctors who do hundreds of drug studies and profiles be completely wrong? Why do you defend drugs, appopin?

 

[JellyBaby]

And now on to Red Dawn,

<< Well the latest example was your statement about using the Encyclopedia Britanica to bring credibility to this discussion.
>>

Again, what facts presented in my quote from that encyclopedia have been proven wrong and where can I go to verfiy this? Why is Britanica not credible?

<< One only has to read your statemnts in this thread to realize that you are close minded and pig headed and unworthy of our efforts to debate you. >>

I'm not close minded. Convince me. If you can I will gladly defend you and promote your cause.

As to your efforts to debate me, you aren't trying very hard and a statement like that is obviously an attempt to weasel your way out of the discussion. Tsk, tsk.

Test of your post were more attacks against me and not worthy of rebuttal.

 

[Ornery]

Jellybaby, do you think that alcohol should remain legal? (nevermind the smilie, I'm serious)

 

[apoppin]

Let me put it to you another way before I provide proof that you won't accept anyway.

JellyBaby, normally your posts are well thought-out and somewhat lucid. Here you seem to have a huge blindspot. You have started out as completely negative on decriminalizing marijuana. You have blindly accepted the Government's anti-pot hysterical propaganda. And you continue to refuse to look at anything positive on the other side.

I used to use marijuana. In fact, for 3 years it was recommended to me by my neurosurgeon, my therapy MD, and General MD, my physical therapist as well as Chinese Herbal Doctor (best credentials in Red China as Hospital Director and Teacher and head of a clinic in Hawaii). For pain management and treatment of post accident depression, they told me there was nothing they could prescribe for long term that was better.

I went on to research the subject. In fact I read more than one hundred books including medical papers on the subject and concluded it has its place in modern medicine. It is less harmful than aspirin or Tylenol, non-addictive compared with the opium/synthetic type pain killers, and lets you go on to lead a more normal lifestyle than the other chemicals. Plus, the new pain-management drugs have unknown long tern effects.

In my research, I came to see how the US Government deliberately lied, manipulated the facts, skewed medical research by withholding grants, and twisted what information that is commonly available on marijuana. These are historical facts.

I no longer smoke. Since I am relatively pain-free, I do not need to, nor do I care to do so. I am just offended that, contrary to your usual posts, you continue to mouth ignorant BS about marijuana. I am wondering WHY your are so hysterically anti-pot. Did you have some bad experience?

 

[apoppin]

Let me continue, JellyBaby to give you just one example that no matter what anyone says you don't even bother to read what is said.

I said (and you quoted me):


<< They [the children] do NOW [smoke pot] here in the USA; In countries that have decriminalized LESS youngsters smoke pot >>



Now you blindly ignored the important part of my statement (now in bold so you can get it) and idiotically responded

<< So because children flock to drugs now, we should make access to drugs even easier? What kind of logic is that? >>



You have missed all the posts saying pot should be restricted to adults, taxed, and an effective campaign be mounted to show children why NOT as well as help people addicted to become more productive.

I have to conclude that you are totally illogical and cannot respond in a debate (as you normally might). THAT is why everyone else is disgusted with your responses and has given up &quot;debating&quot; with you.

 

[searcher]

JellyBaby:

'How is it possible hundres of doctors who do hundreds of drug studies and profiles be completely wrong?&quot;

Another example of your ignorance, marijuana is illegal, makes it a tad tough to study.

I am astounded at the level of ignorance that still surrounds the &quot;evil&quot; weed. It has been ~seventy years since the U.S. Gov't. propaganda film &quot;Reefer Madness&quot; hit the screen and people are still believing that crap, because they are still pushing the same B.S. in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

All the evidence to the contrary? Yeah, how about the millions of otherwise law-abiding, productive, contributing members of society, that use on a regular basis.

I have not seen any of you anti-legalization folks give any indication that you have any real knowledge of that which you regurgitate.

Many of the so-called horror stories come from people that got caught and have gone to re-hab to avoid jail. Of course they are going to &quot;play along&quot; and tell all those horrible things that the authorities want to hear. Tell them what they want to hear = reward. Tell them the truth = jail

BTW, in case you haven't figured it out yet... LEGALIZE IT ALREADY, this is insane. Billions, no, probably trillions by now, of dollars down a rathole, millions of lives and families torn apart, not because of any harmful effects of marijuana, but because of the effects of its illegality and the propaganda.

I'm not going to tell you that it is completely safe or that there are no unhealthy aspects to the use of marijuana. BUT, breathing is not terribly healthy these days either. If we are ever allowed to really study it I believe we will find that casual use has healthful benefits for normal healthy folks.

Any of you anti-drug folks drink coffee or cola or tea, you are consuming a drug that has harmful side effects. When you consider the violence, particularly domestic, that is caused by wired-up, strung-out, caffeine addicts it becomes obvious that we must stop this scourge that is destroying our nation. It has become so rampant that parents think nothing of buying dose after dose for their children. Of course with children we have to cut it with something more palatable, like milk or sugar to get them hooked.

Yup, I don't believe moderate use is any more harmful than caffeine use, or fat consumption, or breathing factory air, or big city air, maybe even country air.

Americas approach to drugs doesn't work, won't work, can't work. Ya know why? Because the first time anyone smokes pot they discover that they were fed a line of s h i t and all of you &quot;JUST SAY NO&quot; folks suddenly lose all credibility.

Michael

 

[apoppin]

searcher, you brought up some interesting points.

I fell sorry for JellyBaby's children. When they get older they will see through his hysterical anti-pot BS and will likely go to the opposite extreme. When kids find out their parents were lying and they find out for themselves that pot does not equal death they often go on to experiment with even harder drugs.

The PROOF of the benefits of decriminalization has already been shown in other more enlightened countries. The USA in this regard is still in the Dark Ages (along with JellyBelly and FFMCobalt). However, the enlightened trend to legalize is a grassroots one such as the California initiative and others.

Anyway, I do not use ANY drugs including caffeine. I cannot find myself saying ANY kind of smoke is GOOD for you. However, pot is not the evil it is made out to be.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

I'd especially like to make a counterpoint to people like FFM who maintain that there is no beneficial use.

I have seen firsthand benefits achieved, namely it was the only thing that helped my mother with her nausea from chemo (and we had tried it all, including marinol, a prescription form of MJ's actives). Also, glaucoma runs rampant on one side of my family ... I am about the only one who has not developed it, and in fact, my eye pressures suggest I never will.

Also, I think Willie Nelson had a good point when he called marijuana &quot;Nature's tranquilizer&quot;. Face it, there are always going to be people in society who require such medicating. How could it be worse for them to burn a doob vs. the alternative of getting a prescript from the Dr. for &quot;Mother's Little Helper&quot;?

But I do draw the line at marijuana (OK, OK, you hash freaks can have your hashish too! ) as far as what should be decriminalized. Not only do the harder drugs bring higher rates of addiction, they are also more inviting for organized crime.

 

[highme]

/me stands up and applauds both apoppin's &amp; searcher's last posts


Now I need to work on a resume

 

[BoberFett]

Dabanshee

It seems I was a bit careless with that post. and double

And you caught me on a bad night. I had many, many beers tonight. Let's say I haven't done any &quot;illegal&quot; drugs. I stick to the legal ones: caffeine, sugar, fat, salt, etc. I'd just like to see the illegal ones decriminalized.

Hey, wait a second, I'm on your side aren't I? What the hell are you hassling me for?

 

[Doomguy]

Jelly: Notice pretty much all the people defending pot are the ones that use or used it and they enjoyed it. They wont admit that it probobly has done some unseen damage to their bodies. If pot had more benefits than sideeffects it would be legal but its not.

 

[pen^2]

wow! so many intelectuals up in here..... first i'd like to express my mad props to Red Dawn!


<< Red Dawn do you ever contribute anything meaningful to a thread? Is it your single goal in life to attack others? Is that your only satisfaction in life? You read my post, picked out the last line and use it to once again attack me. Why don't you be productive and speak to the issues of how harmful or harmless marijuna is and whether or not it should be legalized and what the government's role should be. You waste my time. >>


sure, red does make posts with attitudes, but you gotta admit he is (almost) always right on everything, or i for one think so. red i guess you truly deserve the title of &quot;the head geek&quot; as for aggressive posts... so what? did the guy do any harm to you by puttin up a post that you got insulted from? if you cant take it counter it with your wits, then i guess you must be a loser. after all its just a damn forum, we aint here to pop each other's eye balls out! cant we all just get along?

JellyBaby, FFMCobalt: how much do you know about drugs in general? its always the ignorant ones (when it comes to drugs i mean) that give nods to those hideous commercials where they go &quot;I dont do marijuana, cuz i am kewl&quot; :|
how could you possibly wreck the neighborhood when you are buzzed if you are type of person that wont do such a thing to begin with? hell, i felt comfort and peacefulness just by sittin next to my ole' budda friends smokin'.

dabanshee: you couldnt have said it better...

PS y'all peeps dont be takin 'insults' too seriously. i bet you will agree with the guy on some subsequent thread.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Hy Bober, you cought me out, nitpicking

It's a bad habit of mine.

Do you axcept my most heartfelt apology?

 

[apoppin]

Doomguy, the reason marijuana is not legal is because of the ignorant misconceptions of people like you, not because of any 'benefits' or 'harm' done by it.

It's pretty obvious your mind is so closed. You haven't really read any of the pro-decriminalize posts.

Aspirin is a dangerous drug that kills many people every year since it is so often abused. It is admitted by the medical establishment that if it were a new drug the FDA wouldn't approve it.

 

[gohan]

I just have one question. How easy is it to grow this stuff?

If its legalized i doubt many people will buy it from stores because of the taxes imposed on it.

 

[apoppin]

gohan, it is incredibly easy to grow, indoors or outdoors. Marajuana is a 'sun' plant - it needs full sun or intense light.

However, the penalties for &quot;cultivation&quot; are severe compared with &quot;possesion&quot; in most states.

Tobacco can be cultivated for personal use, right now. You can make your own beer or alcohol in limited quantities. Yet how many people grow their own tobacco or brew their own beer?

Most people are lazy or do not have the &quot;time&quot;. They prefer to buy a product and pay the taxes. No doubt that will continue to be the case if marijuana is decriminalized.

 

[gohan]

Thanks apoppin. I just wanted to know.

If marijuana is ever made legal it will probably be bigger than tobacco. Imagine Big Tobacco jumping on this bandwagon. How can you tell the difference between tobacco and pot if they basically look the same?

I'm afraid people will smoke this stuff in their cars. If pot has a truly relaxing affect i would be terrified to be on the highway at times.

You really can't enforce punishing people that smoke marijuana in their cars. How will a police officer know the difference between that and a regular cigarette? Will they be forced to pull everyone over that smokes? I doubt that they will.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Don't be an idiot, they'd test it the same way they test for alcohol - using a breathaliser. Already the European Union Traffic Safety commission has developed (or are in the process) of developing a pot breathaliser. They are going through the tune in testing stage - they have to make sure they don't get false positives from people who indulged 2 days ago or just happened to be in the company of others who were indulging, recently.

Mind you such a tuning in phase could take yonks - it took literally years to develop a alcohol breatherliser that was acurate enough to tell when someone was over 0.5 or 0.8

Besides, the fact is that such a breathaliser will no more be needed then as they are needed now, because in every country where pot was illegal, then later decriminalised, there has been no increase in usage. Actually in some cases there has been a decrease as people could then plan their pot smoking better, &amp; not just smoke it whenever they can.

 

[BoberFett]

Dab

I gotta ask, what in hell is a yonk? You use it a lot.