NYT: France is becoming our enemy

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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If i were Mr. Chirac, i would be very careful right now... when even the NY Times starts calling you "the enemy," you're in serious sh!t... :Q

France is our enemy

Our War With France
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy.

If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq's transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided U.N. than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq.

France wants America to sink in a quagmire there in the crazy hope that a weakened U.S. will pave the way for France to assume its "rightful" place as America's equal, if not superior, in shaping world affairs.

Yes, the Bush team's arrogance has sharpened French hostility. Had President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld not been so full of themselves right after America's military victory in Iraq ? and instead used that moment, when the French were feeling that maybe they should have taken part, to magnanimously reach out to Paris to join in reconstruction ? it might have softened French attitudes. But even that I have doubts about.

What I have no doubts about, though, is that there is no coherent, legitimate Iraqi authority able to assume power in the near term, and trying to force one now would lead to a dangerous internal struggle and delay the building of the democratic institutions Iraq so badly needs. Iraqis know this. France knows this, which is why its original proposal (which it now seems to be backtracking on a bit) could only be malicious.

What is so amazing to me about the French campaign ? "Operation America Must Fail" ? is that France seems to have given no thought as to how this would affect France. Let me spell it out in simple English: if America is defeated in Iraq by a coalition of Saddamists and Islamists, radical Muslim groups ? from Baghdad to the Muslim slums of Paris ? will all be energized, and the forces of modernism and tolerance within these Muslim communities will be on the run. To think that France, with its large Muslim minority, where radicals are already gaining strength, would not see its own social fabric affected by this is fanciful.

If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we're sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution.

But then France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world, which is why its pose as the new protector of Iraqi representative government ? after being so content with Saddam's one-man rule ? is so patently cynical.

Clearly, not all E.U. countries are comfortable with this French mischief, yet many are going along for the ride. It's stunning to me that the E.U., misled by France, could let itself be written out of the most important political development project in modern Middle East history. The whole tone and direction of the Arab-Muslim world, which is right on Europe's doorstep, will be affected by the outcome in Iraq. It would be as if America said it did not care what happened in Mexico because it was mad at Spain.

Says John Chipman, director of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies: "What the Europeans are saying about Iraq is that this is our backyard, we're not going to let you meddle in it, but we're not going to tend it ourselves."

But what's most sad is that France is right ? America will not be as effective or legitimate in its efforts to rebuild Iraq without French help. Having France working with us in Iraq, rather than against us in the world, would be so beneficial for both nations and for the Arabs' future. Too bad this French government has other priorities.

This topic has gone down the drain. Feel free to recreate this thread, glenn1.

AnandTech Moderator
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
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This is pretty dumb, can't we get along already? The war has happenend and their isnt much we can do now.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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We've never gotten along with the French. Why should anything change? It's a wonder we've never been at war with them.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
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Originally posted by: alchemize
We've never gotten along with the French. Why should anything change? It's a wonder we've never been at war with them.


I thought we did have a war against them and the native americans.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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"Says John Chipman, director of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies: "What the Europeans are saying about Iraq is that this is our backyard, we're not going to let you meddle in it, but we're not going to tend it ourselves."

Nothing new. Post-modernism has certainly been the defacto philosophy of choice over in much of Europe for quite some time.

<soft whispering>... Bosnia..... after six years...... and many thousands of deaths later ....... finally got some attention......

.... Libya and Chad,.... the Palestinian question,....Kosovo, Macedonia, Cyprus, Lebanon....

.....Algeria....and.......France....... for ........ eight ........ years.......</soft whispering>
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,500
6,044
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Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: alchemize
We've never gotten along with the French. Why should anything change? It's a wonder we've never been at war with them.


I thought we did have a war against them and the native americans.

Unless I'm mistaken, that would have been the British during the War of 1812.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
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wake up people france and germany our not our real freinds, never were..............germany has shown there true color since russia is not at there BACK DOOR

the cia told me this in 91................how true it is

You can have a week away from here to find a few brain cells.

AnandTech Moderator
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: alchemize
We've never gotten along with the French. Why should anything change? It's a wonder we've never been at war with them.


I thought we did have a war against them and the native americans.

Unless I'm mistaken, that would have been the British during the War of 1812.

No, the only war Americans have fought against the French was before the formation of the United States - the so-called French and Indian War of the late 1750s. The American colonists fought on the British side against the French and their American Indian allies (some American Indian tribes fought for the Brit/American side as well). Since the U.S. came into existence, the U.S. has never fought a war against France though we did fight in the British. Ironic considering the current comparison of relations with Britain and France!

That said, from reading French news online, I don't get the sense that the French people are as rabidly anti-American as the government position suggests. There is a strong undercurrent of support for the goals of American action in Iraq, if not the method, but the French government is hamstrung by its desire for a place on the world stage and its large, generally unhappy Arab population. I hate to say it, but a nice, powerful bomb in Paris might shake them up enough to change the government's attitude. Given al'Qaida's hatred for the entire West, it could happen.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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0
I hate to say it, but a nice, powerful bomb in Paris might shake them up enough to change the government's attitude. Given al'Qaida's hatred for the entire West, it could happen.

Yeah! That would teach 'em.
rolleye.gif

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,500
6,044
126
It is quite interesting at how US-French relations have become. The Bush Admin tried ridiculing the French, dismissed them, then avoided them in the SC. Now we have Friedman from NYT suggesting that France *is* becoming an enemy. If it becomes true, then I hope the parties involved realize why.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
you people need to wake up and get out in the world, france anf germany our not our freinds period.............my god how dumb are the american low class simple mined people
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
you people need to wake up and get out in the world, france anf germany our not our freinds period.............my god how dumb are the american low class simple mined people

I dunno, you tell us all knowing one. How could we possibly know being simple minded, low class americans? Also, should we salute or something when addressing your highness?
rolleye.gif
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
I hate to say it, but a nice, powerful bomb in Paris might shake them up enough to change the government's attitude. Given al'Qaida's hatred for the entire West, it could happen

rolleye.gif


No, make that 2
rolleye.gif
's
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
becuase I have been to there trash land and listen there BS in the last six months, germany is worse than france imho
germany is beer dunken ped gay boys.why do think they fell for the nazi BS? it was only natural gay ped boys.........
what ever.............................................

I still listen to low class american's brag about how germany is the master race..................retarded, germany never ever had a real empire, to drunk and gay boying
germany the trash of the white race, wake up how true it is

they are jelues, seen they are supposed to be at the top of the world and aren't
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,500
6,044
126
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
becuase I have been to there trash land and listen there BS in the last six months, germany is worse than france imho
germany is beer dunken ped gay boys.why do think they fell for the nazi BS? it was only natural gay ped boys.........
what ever.............................................

WTF?
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
WTF is right wake up people
I was told 20 years ago that the germans were worse than the russians when it came to spying, I was told not fly on ther airliners....................................
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
becuase I have been to there trash land and listen there BS in the last six months, germany is worse than france imho
germany is beer dunken ped gay boys.why do think they fell for the nazi BS? it was only natural gay ped boys.........
what ever.............................................

I still listen to low class american's brag about how germany is the master race..................retarded, germany never ever had a real empire, to drunk and gay boying
germany the trash of the white race, wake up how true it is

they are jelues, seen they are supposed to be at the of the world and aren't

Hmmm...for one who is so smart, you seem to be in dire need of an English class....at the very least. You might also want to check into that Germany hating thing...
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
It's difficult to comprehend the continuing delusion that many people in the world support US actions in Iraq. The overwelming majority of people across the globe despise terrorism and all other forms of aggression against the innocent. The public opinion expressed throughout the world is overwelmingly anti-Bush foreign policy. 9/11 did not change the world . . . Election 2000 changed the world. It's been going down hill ever since.

I'm not saying Chirac wouldn't still be a weanie if Gore was President. But the sole voice of diplomatic reason in the Bush administration has been Powell . . . and his voice is starting to crack. Before Iraq, Powell had international standing that far exceeded Bush. Today, there isn't a single administration figure with international credibility.

Chirac can be a twit but the Bush administration has made few friends since his inauguration . . . well except for Musharraf . . . but I wouldn't brag about that.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
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0
ok I am crazy.........................................................LOL americans are so dumb, or armreekan's as some people call us
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
it really is amazing how dumb american's are, just like before WII....dumb

PS, I am a bush hater also, LOL
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
ok I am crazy.........................................................LOL americans are so dumb, or armreekan's as some people call us

You're supposed to be an American? From the sound of it you came to our country from God knows what toilet and you have the audacity to talk sh!t to us? If we are so dumb and you are so great what the hell are you doing here Franz? The German gay ped boys kick you out?