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NYPD Police Shoots & Kill a Man Near Times Square

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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
0
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Yeah i'm sure you'd change your tune if 20 cops all of a sudden started emptying their clips near you.
You mean "emptying their magazines near you" or possibly "emptying their cylinders near you". I hate to get technical, but no NY police departments use a handgun or a rifle that uses a "clip".


Just doing my small part to keep ATP&N accurate.
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
3
76
So seriously, how would private ownership of guns have helped in this situation?
If guns were more readily available, everyone would have one and the man would think twice about pulling a knife because he would have to assume that every other citizen would be packing and could put him down if needed.

Did I get that right?
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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If guns were more readily available, everyone would have one and the man would think twice about pulling a knife because he would have to assume that every other citizen would be packing and could put him down if needed.

Did I get that right?
Or, a gun toting freedom citizen would challenge these fascistic cops, right?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
772
126
You mean "emptying their magazines near you" or possibly "emptying their cylinders near you". I hate to get technical, but no NY police departments use a handgun or a rifle that uses a "clip".


Just doing my small part to keep ATP&N accurate.
Nobody gives a fuck.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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You know, there's something called a taser, it would have been FAR more preferable than shooting up the place in a crowded street. I'm sure at least one of the cops would have hit him with the taser.
I was wondering about that, too.

I spend a lot of time in NYC and I don't recall seeing street cops equipped with tasers, though. The cops on the video don't have them. Most taser models are kinda bulky and you can definitely tell them from firearms, holstered or deployed.

I looked up the standard equipment that patrol officers have here, and pepper spray is all they are authorized to carry.

The Emergency Services Unit has them stocked in their vehicles, maybe the patrol cars that are seen arriving on scene in the video have them as well.

If a few more minutes had passed, I would guess that ESU would have resolved the situation differently. As it was, the perp made his move when he did and was killed before he hurt anyone.

This shoot was, in some ways, a fatal variation on the truism, "When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away." In this case, cops with the right equipment were needed but time ran out.

EDIT: Found another reference -

Currently, 525 members of the Emergency Service Unit and sergeants throughout the department carry a Taser gun on their holsters.
 
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sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
3
76
Or, a gun toting freedom citizen would challenge these fascistic cops, right?
No, that wouldn't happen. Listen to me - if everyone had guns, nobody would pull a stunt like this because the risk that someone in the crowd would be packing is too high.
 

readymix

Senior member
Jan 3, 2007
357
1
81
if stayed in the middle of the street he could have walked into the hudson. if he's on the sidewalk, like it appears he was, and walks in front of an automatic door, then what....?
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,956
33
91
If he came at anyone with it, that would be justified.

I'm still wondering why the !@#$ they had guns and not tasers drawn.
A knife is a deadly weapon and at short distances can be very dangerous. A gun is much more reliable to take down a suspect that is threatening harm with a deadly weapon. Even sometimes using a taser a suspect will not go down, a gun is much more reliable at taking a suspect down and allows a greater stand off distance from a suspect that is threatening with a knife. You also assume that the cops even had tasers. Not all departments issue tasers to all their officers. Even with a Baton you don't want to get in a hand-hand combat situation with a knife welding suspect. You bring a deadly weapon (knife, gun etc) and threaten officers you have a good chance of getting shot.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
772
126
I was wondering about that, too.

I spend a lot of time in NYC and I don't recall seeing street cops equipped with tasers, though. The cops on the video don't have them. Most taser models are kinda bulky and you can definitely tell them from firearms, holstered or deployed.

I looked up the standard equipment that patrol officers have here, and pepper spray is all they are authorized to carry.

The Emergency Services Unit has them stocked in their vehicles, maybe the patrol cars that are seen arriving on scene in the video have them as well.

If a few more minutes had passed, I would guess that ESU would have resolved the situation differently. As it was, the perp made his move when he did and was killed before he hurt anyone.

This shoot was, in some ways, a fatal variation on the truism, "When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away." In this case, cops with the right equipment were needed but time ran out.

EDIT: Found another reference -
Then the department is at fault for not giving them tasers and training them on it.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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Nobody gives a fuck.
Just doing my part to correct a statement that an ignorant lefty poster made about something he doesn't know shit about. I'd be doing a lot more of it since there's a shitload/crapton of ignorant fucking lefty posters, but I just don't have the time.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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0
Then the department is at fault for not giving them tasers and training them on it.
I've had a little time this evening to read up on the use of tasers in NYC.

As you are well aware, many liberal citizens groups are opposed to use of force under any circumstance. New York City is full of these liberal citizens that cry and weep and scream of police brutality no matter what level of force is used.

If you look at the reference link on tasers in my prior post, you will see the story is actually about the death of one of the mentally unbalanced characters that are so common in NYC.

As it happens, Iman Morales, 35, was naked and waving a fluorescent light bulb at officers as he stood on a ledge. After a half-hour standoff with the police a Lt. Michael Pigott ordered Officer Nicholas Marchesona to fire his taser. Naked and crazy Mr. Morales fell off head first and died.

Death by taser, right?

Combine a few more such instances and a few incidents where individual officers misused their issued tasers and all of a sudden the good citizens of NYC are up in arms demanding that these less than lethal force devices be held back from the patrol force. In effect, reducing the options that the cops have to: a can of pepper spray, maybe a baton and a hand gun.

Pepper spray don't work all that well on crazy people, drugged up or not. Like the perp in this instance they just take it in stride and keep on coming.

Batons against a raging, knife wielding crazy is not a fair match up. A knife will win almost every time. A knife will win against a gun in close quarters most of the time as well. I bet you didn't know that.

Which leaves us with the weapon of last resort, the handgun. Unless you hit a crazy in the brain stem or only a few other critical locations, the crazy can and often will keep coming at you. A crazy with a blade does need to be put down definitively and if a handgun is the only recourse you do need to take the shot and very likely should consider emptying your weapon into said crazy.

12 shots were taken. Maybe six would have done the trick. The shooting took all of about a second and a half. In a second and a half, a crazy can cover 20+ feet. He went down and never made it far enough to stick his IKEA 11" blade into one of the cops, so the only thing we know for sure is that 12 shots were enough.

The good liberal citizens of New York were disturbed by the twitching of tasered crazy perps so they demanded that access to this non-lethal force option be highly restricted. In effect, they made the choice of how the PD would respond and they chose lethal force over non-lethal options.

As has been stated in other posts above, tasering doesn't always work. Heavy clothing, a body pumped up on meth or PCP or bath salts, even a mechanical malfunction in the taser device will reduce effectiveness. There is no sure thing in this world, so even if every cop there had tasers, my hope is that at least one of them would have had his service weapon drawn and ready for use.
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
3
76
People already conceal carry in other states and the scenario you put forth has not happened.
Do you mean in other states with concealed carry nobody has gone crazy and tried to attack police, thus agreeing with me? Or are you saying that despite CCW, there have still been incidents?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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I looked at the video and read some of the stories. The perp was an unstable character, had 10 arrests, including seven for marijuana possession, police said, and had been hospitalized for psychiatric observation after knocking down garbage cans in Times Square. One of his earlier busts was for going at cops with a screwdriver in the same manner. He was charged with criminal possession of a weapon and reckless endangerment in that incident and served time on Rikers for it.

He was shot as he rushed with his knife at two cops getting out of their patrol vehicle. They couldn't retreat as they were blocked by the patrol vehicle.

Other officers shot the perp before he could stab the blocked cops.

We don't have actual video of the shooting, but the streets seem to have cleared out as the drama was moving over four blocks of 7th Ave. No stray shots identified.

Looks like a good shoot to me.
Thanks for the info. Outrage not found.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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You mean "emptying their magazines near you" or possibly "emptying their cylinders near you". I hate to get technical, but no NY police departments use a handgun or a rifle that uses a "clip".


Just doing my small part to keep ATP&N accurate.
You mean they do not issue M1 Garands to the police force? When did they stop doing that?

EDIT: Good writeup about clips, stripper clips, and magazines here:

http://www.thegunzone.com/clips-mags.html
 
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mafia

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2008
1,671
3
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There is no reason for these cops to have to risk their own blood in order to keep this man alive. Using a taser and batons is a higher risk of injury for the police. If this man was smart enough and cared about his own life, he would have put the knife down.

The man decided to lunge at the cops, cops defended themselves. This is 100% justified. Additionally, if the cops tasered him and arrested him, he would go to jail for 5 years and then be back out on the streets. One less psychopath on the streets, tax money saved from jail housing/future crime.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
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I would not say this is 100% justified, but you take that chance bringing a knife to bear against an officer who is brandishing a pistol. I certainly would agree that not only was the cop well within his rights, but any citizen in that situation would have been.

That said, the fact that there were 20+ officers there hurts the justifiability of this action in this specific event. It did not need to go that far. Plenty of those officers had non-lethal means of disposal on hand, I'm sure. These guys need to go to the Dog the Bounty Hunter school of apprehension.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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Which of the cops should they have been willing to sacrifice if their non-lethal means failed when they guy used a lethal weapon against an officer?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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How long until Obama says the cops are horrible people since they are white and the attacker was black?
 

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