NYC cuts $10k/yr rental vouchers leaving many homeless then spends $36k to house them

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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
This is to funny for words. You're calling one of the most well cited, documented and understood and almost universally agreed upon positions in economics a theory. That's like saying 2+2 = 4 is a nice theory but it has no relation to the real world.

LOLOL

Yeah I guess this conversation is done as I'm arguing with someone who willfully refuses acknowledge any points and continues barreling on like a dump truck despite the mountains of data and case studies in the field of economics which disproves their personal opinion when it comes to the effects and outcomes of rent control.

Wow, you are too dense. I am not disagreeing with your sources or even you. I am disagreeing with you as to why cities do this. This is what you have a difficult time understanding. If government did everything according to economic theory, there would be no subsidies, no loopholes, no assistance programs, etc... What part of this do you not fucking understand? Also, the cities you mentioned (San Antonio, San Diego, etc) are not in the same league as places like New York, where space is scarce.

EDIT: Also, you are assuming that there are only two types of residencies in NYC. There aren't. There are stupidly wealthy, luxurious, middle income, poor, and very poor. The housing in the City run the gamut. It is not just limited to the extremes your theory espouses. Seriously, you really need to read up on housing in New York before talking about New York. This conversation has been a complete waste of my time.It's like a New Yorker arguing with someone from Mongolia about New York's property market.
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
I seem to remember a time when you as the family packed up your shit into a wagon and moved towns when there was nothing there anymore :confused:

Why does everyone think something today in the modern world is more difficult to do today? So mind boggling stupid of a concept that you CANT move. Now it is more than ever easy - the only problem is a lack of initiative when people will just pay for you to stay. Hell, now you know where jobs are and what towns are thriving BEFORE you just venture out. if you got a PhD in Economics it must have been from DeVry University and accompanied with a degree in stupidity :rolleyes:

We're talking about poor/homeless families, Einstein. I swear, some of you idiots just want to spew your rancid opinions without even a modicum of thought.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Wow, you are too dense. I am not disagreeing with your sources or even you. I am disagreeing with you as to why cities do this. This is what you have a difficult time understanding. If government did everything according to economic theory, there would be no subsidies, no loopholes, no assistance programs, etc... What part of this do you not fucking understand? Also, the cities you mentioned (San Antonio, San Diego, etc) are not in the same league as places like New York, where space is scarce.

EDIT: Also, you are assuming that there are only two types of residencies in NYC. There aren't. There are stupidly wealthy, luxurious, middle income, poor, and very poor. The housing in the City run the gamut. It is not just limited to the extremes your theory espouses. Seriously, you really need to read up on housing in New York before talking about New York. This conversation has been a complete waste of my time.It's like a New Yorker arguing with someone from Mongolia about New York's property market.

One could make the argument that he's knowledgeable enough about the NYC housing market not to live there and pay extra taxes to give others the $10-36k/year that chumps like you do.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Wow, you are too dense. I am not disagreeing with your sources or even you. I am disagreeing with you as to why cities do this. This is what you have a difficult time understanding. If government did everything according to economic theory, there would be no subsidies, no loopholes, no assistance programs, etc...

If politicians actually had incentives to act out of proper understanding of economic reasoning then we wouldn't see markets being distorted via government with such harmful polices such as rent control. We wouldn't see this disastrous policy which impose price ceilings that discourages supply at one end of the market and price floors which over supplies us at the other end all at the expense of renters/tax payers. Furthermore those at the lower end would have more economic opportunities achieve and acquire what they desire rather than be dependent on government if politicians (especially local politicians) were to actually understand the economic ramifications of their actions and had a political incentive to act properly on the issue.

Yet the reality is politicians really don't care for economic truth when it is not politically feasible or prudent to undone the years of damage done by a reckless policy such as rent control in the market place. In the end what drives politicians is re-election and not actually confronting horrible policies like rent control and explaining to the uninformed electorate that upon further inspection such a deceitfully named policy is actually economically destructive.

What part of this do you not fucking understand?

I understand the issue perfectly, you whoever are the one running in circles avoiding having to acknowledge the economic facts behind reasoning as to why rent control is a well documented and cited destructive force in cities.

Also, the cities you mentioned (San Antonio, San Diego, etc) are not in the same league as places like New York, where space is scarce..

The effects rent control (or the effects of a lack of rent control) are not just seen or felt in places like New York. The fundamental economic principals at play in New York's market are only different in scale when compared to other US cities. In addition the results which are produced by rent control laws have been and are universally seen and felt in every city or town that has enacted such a policy in the world. Hence this is why the effects of rent control itself is one of the most well studied and cited legislative policy phenomenons in economics.


EDIT: Also, you are assuming that there are only two types of residencies in NYC. There aren't. There are stupidly wealthy, luxurious, middle income, poor, and very poor. The housing in the City run the gamut. It is not just limited to the extremes your theory espouses.

And those middle-income, poor and very poor forms of housing are all priced at such a high rate that the NYC has to issue out housing vouchers because the rate at which rents of increased has long ago eclipse what lower income people used to be able to afford.

Seriously, you really need to read up on housing in New York before talking about New York. This conversation has been a complete waste of my time.It's like a New Yorker arguing with someone from Mongolia about New York's property market.

Maybe you should actually crack open a economics book and read about the case studies on rent control. Many of which are part of econ 101 and include actual studies of New York rental market itself as done by renowned economists.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Yes and your job will magically move with you...

That doesn't seem to mean a lot to the people in Albany when screwing the rest of us over. I think we really should combine the easternmost portion of NY and Vermont and let techs pay the bills :p
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
I've noticed the murder rate per 100,000 is highly correlated to the bordering countries. EU overall has barely any murders.

The UK is surrounded by other countries with low murder rates, on an island. Like... lol.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Canada can bash us, whatever. The USA is clearly buffering them from crime in Mexico. They wouldn't think so highly of themselves if they had that neighborhood :awe:

Anyway the USA is bigger, and has hotzones of crime. Chicago, Detroit, DC, etc. Its almost as if they may have some sort of municipal laws that seem to increase crime in those areas.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
If politicians actually had incentives to act out of proper understanding of economic reasoning then we wouldn't see markets being distorted via government with such harmful polices such as rent control. We wouldn't see this disastrous policy which impose price ceilings that discourages supply at one end of the market and price floors which over supplies us at the other end all at the expense of renters/tax payers. Furthermore those at the lower end would have more economic opportunities achieve and acquire what they desire rather than be dependent on government if politicians (especially local politicians) were to actually understand the economic ramifications of their actions and had a political incentive to act properly on the issue.

Yet the reality is politicians really don't care for economic truth when it is not politically feasible or prudent to undone the years of damage done by a reckless policy such as rent control in the market place. In the end what drives politicians is re-election and not actually confronting horrible policies like rent control and explaining to the uninformed electorate that upon further inspection such a deceitfully named policy is actually economically destructive.



I understand the issue perfectly, you whoever are the one running in circles avoiding having to acknowledge the economic facts behind reasoning as to why rent control is a well documented and cited destructive force in cities.



The effects rent control (or the effects of a lack of rent control) are not just seen or felt in places like New York. The fundamental economic principals at play in New York's market are only different in scale when compared to other US cities. In addition the results which are produced by rent control laws have been and are universally seen and felt in every city or town that has enacted such a policy in the world. Hence this is why the effects of rent control itself is one of the most well studied and cited legislative policy phenomenons in economics.




And those middle-income, poor and very poor forms of housing are all priced at such a high rate that the NYC has to issue out housing vouchers because the rate at which rents of increased has long ago eclipse what lower income people used to be able to afford.



Maybe you should actually crack open a economics book and read about the case studies on rent control. Many of which are part of econ 101 and include actual studies of New York rental market itself as done by renowned economists.

You know, until this conversation, I used to actually respect your conservative opinion. But now, you are no better than the other crazies that have fucked up the Republican Party with their puritanical views on economics. These crazies are of two school. They are either in academia and have never worked in business or been given any leadership position where their policies and actions would have real effects on real people or society. The others are idiots ignorant of economics who follow the former without really (again) understanding the economic effects of theory. These morons are usually students of the Austrian/Chicago school of economics. When I was at Princeton I used to think like this. Now that I actually have some type of influence, and I've seen the result of theoretical approaches, I no longer hold these views.

Since you think you know what you don't know, I will give you an example that is as plain as day. You can do the dishes (i.e. look up the references afterwards). When Japan's economy started to slow down and go into reverse, policymakers in Washington D.C., London, Brussels, and all the important economic schools were of one mind. They said "Let the weak firms die" or "Kill the weak banks". They repeatedly scolded the Japanese for two decades to kill off important parts of their economies that were dragging the rest down. They implored Japanese prime ministers and heads of central banks to follow economic theory and let the dying die so that the living can flourish. Japan ignored all this advice and poured money into their economies. Yes, Japan pioneered quantitative easing. People like Larry Summers were at the forefront of this nonsense. Well, when the US economy went into a tailspin in 2008, these same idiots did the same thing the Japanese were doing. Even Larry Summers himself said that he was mistaken in his beliefs. Seeing what they were going through, those in the West now understood the perils of following economic theory to the letter and letting critical institutions such as banks go under. Why? Because sentiment and confidence are extremely important in the modern economy. Also, these acts have a domino effect. Kill one bank and those that do business with that bank will also go under. Other banks will see what happened seize up. This is what economic purists did not understand: that there are unintended consequences that exist outside the realm of cold numbers.

Of course, many economists have come around to this view. But the idiot followers are either too slow or dumb to understand. In America they are considered Tea Partiers. They think theory trumps everything. True idiots that will never learn.

Here is something you will never understand about economics since you are not in that field: It is not an exact science. Yes, economics can use the latest algorithms from engineering or even pure math, but it is also reliant on the social sciences too. Things like behavioral economics are as important to the dismal science as mathematics. That is why, unlike physics or engineering, you have "right-wing" economists and "left-wing" economists. The dismal science is far too complicated to be left in the hands of theoreticians.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
We're talking about poor/homeless families, Einstein. I swear, some of you idiots just want to spew your rancid opinions without even a modicum of thought.

I'm sorry - where exactly does being "homeless" (quoted for lack of definition) dictate ANYTHING about not being able to move? :confused:

Seriously, you are butt-fucking retarded. I'm willing to bet you haven't even made it past high school economics :rolleyes:
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
I'm sorry - where exactly does being "homeless" (quoted for lack of definition) dictate ANYTHING about not being able to move? :confused:

Seriously, you are butt-fucking retarded. I'm willing to bet you haven't even made it past high school economics :rolleyes:

Well, I'm surprised governments have not hired you to solve their homeless problem. I mean, according to geniuses like you, all the homeless people have to do is move to another city where the jobs are and their problems will be solved. Why didn't anyone think of that earlier:rolleyes:
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
Dari/airdata... went to Princeton to get an economics phd.... omg lol........ I hope no one actually believes that crap.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
Well, I'm surprised governments have not hired you to solve their homeless problem. I mean, according to geniuses like you, all the homeless people have to do is move to another city where the jobs are and their problems will be solved. Why didn't anyone think of that earlier:rolleyes:


If you are an adult and homeless then you are incapable of making your own decisions and should be put in an institution.

I'm a fan of the cruise ships idea... Pack them all on a boat with some food, send them out in the ocean, problem solved.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
If you are an adult and homeless then you are incapable of making your own decisions and should be put in an institution.

I'm a fan of the cruise ships idea... Pack them all on a boat with some food, send them out in the ocean, problem solved.

Most homeless people have mental problems. They end up on the streets for a variety of reasons. The working poor can become homeless just as easily. Unfortunately, with the recession and cut backs in government programs, a lot of homeless people are being kicked out of institutions and ending up on the street. Something similar is happening with cut backs in assistance programs.
 

Puddle Jumper

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,835
1
0
You know, until this conversation, I used to actually respect your conservative opinion. But now, you are no better than the other crazies that have fucked up the Republican Party with their puritanical views on economics. These crazies are of two school. They are either in academia and have never worked in business or been given any leadership position where their policies and actions would have real effects on real people or society. The others are idiots ignorant of economics who follow the former without really (again) understanding the economic effects of theory. These morons are usually students of the Austrian/Chicago school of economics. When I was at Princeton I used to think like this. Now that I actually have some type of influence, and I've seen the result of theoretical approaches, I no longer hold these views.

Since you think you know what you don't know, I will give you an example that is as plain as day. You can do the dishes (i.e. look up the references afterwards). When Japan's economy started to slow down and go into reverse, policymakers in Washington D.C., London, Brussels, and all the important economic schools were of one mind. They said "Let the weak firms die" or "Kill the weak banks". They repeatedly scolded the Japanese for two decades to kill off important parts of their economies that were dragging the rest down. They implored Japanese prime ministers and heads of central banks to follow economic theory and let the dying die so that the living can flourish. Japan ignored all this advice and poured money into their economies. Yes, Japan pioneered quantitative easing. People like Larry Summers were at the forefront of this nonsense. Well, when the US economy went into a tailspin in 2008, these same idiots did the same thing the Japanese were doing. Even Larry Summers himself said that he was mistaken in his beliefs. Seeing what they were going through, those in the West now understood the perils of following economic theory to the letter and letting critical institutions such as banks go under. Why? Because sentiment and confidence are extremely important in the modern economy. Also, these acts have a domino effect. Kill one bank and those that do business with that bank will also go under. Other banks will see what happened seize up. This is what economic purists did not understand: that there are unintended consequences that exist outside the realm of cold numbers.

Of course, many economists have come around to this view. But the idiot followers are either too slow or dumb to understand. In America they are considered Tea Partiers. They think theory trumps everything. True idiots that will never learn.

Here is something you will never understand about economics since you are not in that field: It is not an exact science. Yes, economics can use the latest algorithms from engineering or even pure math, but it is also reliant on the social sciences too. Things like behavioral economics are as important to the dismal science as mathematics. That is why, unlike physics or engineering, you have "right-wing" economists and "left-wing" economists. The dismal science is far too complicated to be left in the hands of theoreticians.

Only you could find a way to talk about Japan in a thread about NYC.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
You know, until this conversation, I used to actually respect your conservative opinion. But now, you are no better than the other crazies that have fucked up the Republican Party with their puritanical views on economics. These crazies are of two school. They are either in academia and have never worked in business or been given any leadership position where their policies and actions would have real effects on real people or society. The others are idiots ignorant of economics who follow the former without really (again) understanding the economic effects of theory. These morons are usually students of the Austrian/Chicago school of economics. When I was at Princeton I used to think like this. Now that I actually have some type of influence, and I've seen the result of theoretical approaches, I no longer hold these views.

Injecting a red herring and attempting to politicize one of the most unanimously agreed upon topics in economics (the negative effects of rent control) is not proving anything other than your attempts to cover the failings of your argument. The views on rent control crosses political boundaries in economics because it is one of the most well known and well studied cases of the effects of supply and demand in market hit with a often view as inflexiable price ceiling.

Since you think you know what you don't know, I will give you an example that is as plain as day. You can do the dishes (i.e. look up the references afterwards). When Japan's economy started to slow down and go into reverse, policymakers in Washington D.C., London, Brussels, and all the important economic schools were of one mind. They said "Let the weak firms die" or "Kill the weak banks". They repeatedly scolded the Japanese for two decades to kill off important parts of their economies that were dragging the rest down. They implored Japanese prime ministers and heads of central banks to follow economic theory and let the dying die so that the living can flourish. Japan ignored all this advice and poured money into their economies. Yes, Japan pioneered quantitative easing. People like Larry Summers were at the forefront of this nonsense. Well, when the US economy went into a tailspin in 2008, these same idiots did the same thing the Japanese were doing. Even Larry Summers himself said that he was mistaken in his beliefs. Seeing what they were going through, those in the West now understood the perils of following economic theory to the letter and letting critical institutions such as banks go under. Why? Because sentiment and confidence are extremely important in the modern economy. Also, these acts have a domino effect. Kill one bank and those that do business with that bank will also go under. Other banks will see what happened seize up. This is what economic purists did not understand: that there are unintended consequences that exist outside the realm of cold numbers.

Of course, many economists have come around to this view. But the idiot followers are either too slow or dumb to understand. In America they are considered Tea Partiers. They think theory trumps everything. True idiots that will never learn.

Again another red herring.


Here is something you will never understand about economics since you are not in that field: It is not an exact science. Yes, economics can use the latest algorithms from engineering or even pure math, but it is also reliant on the social sciences too. Things like behavioral economics are as important to the dismal science as mathematics. That is why, unlike physics or engineering, you have "right-wing" economists and "left-wing" economists. The dismal science is far too complicated to be left in the hands of theoreticians.

This isn't a debate about left and right political spectrums. It is a debate about a universally agreed upon view on the effects of rent control which is one of the most studied and well studied and known issues in economics. Neither is the universal conclusion on the topic a theory as there are decades worth of case studies on the issue from pro-free market economists such as Monetarist Milton Friedman, Austrian F.H. Hakey, Keynesian Paul Krugman, even Swedish socialist economists such as Gannar Mygrail, etc.

Again it is so well studied and understood that there is no actual debate on the issue itself from anyone with a fundamental and solid understanding of economics no matter what school of economics they adhere to and regardless of their own political leanings.

Furthermore while economics may be considered a soft science (Certainly there are some models which are very accurate but even these mathematical models have their limits in regards to how many extraneous variables to include and account for in their workings) there are well known and established fundamental axioms which are very much grounded in solid and observable economic outcomes that all economist agree upon (supply and demand, the effects of ridged price ceilings, and price floors, etc) as factual and universally agreed upon truths.


Lastly I'l leave you some quotes from some very renown economists and one communist forging minister all of whom have political views which run the gamut but who all agree upon the effects of rent control and its destructive nature.

“In many cases rent control appears to be the most efficient technique presently known to destroy a city – except for bombing” - Asser Lindbeck- noted Swedish socialist economist.

“ The Americans couldn’t destroy Hanoi, but we have destroyed our city by very low rents. We realized it was stupid and that we must change policy.” - Vietnam Foreign Minister Nguyen Co Thach 1989

“ Rent control has in certain Western countries constituted , maybe, the worst example of poor planning by governments lacking courage and vision” - Gunnar Myrdal - architect of the Swedish welfare state

“ If this account seems to boil down to a catalogue of inequities to be laid at the door of rent control, that is no mere coincidence, but inevitable.” Friedrich von Hayek – noted free market economist
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
No it isn't. THey're saying it's easy to just up and leave. Also, these vouchers are for people living in the City. You cannot use it to live in another place.



Tell me, how are they supposed to up and leave the City and move to North Dakota or Georgia or wherever the fuck? Where is that money coming from and, without a job lined up, what makes you think they won't become a burden in that new area?

given that the city is spending well over $10K per year in housing costs;
Provide the family an used car valued at at least $4000 (use city impound if need), a $1000 fuel voucher and a $5000 voucher valid at any bank 1000 miles from NYC and $500 in food vouchers.

With the written understanding that no person in that immediate family can apply/receive assistance for 3 years.

That will allow anyone to get out of NYC and get stabilized in another state for a job.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,142
6,955
136
given that the city is spending well over $10K per year in housing costs;
Provide the family an used car valued at at least $4000 (use city impound if need), a $1000 fuel voucher and a $5000 voucher valid at any bank 1000 miles from NYC and $500 in food vouchers.

With the written understanding that no person in that immediate family can apply/receive assistance for 3 years.

That will allow anyone to get out of NYC and get stabilized in another state for a job.

And the jobs will just follow these people? I don't think shipping off the poor people will solve the problem.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Not that I really care what New Yorkers waste their money on, but they should have eliminated both the voucher and the taxpayer-funded shelters. Provide them with a taxpayer funded move to another location with lower cost-of-living if they can't afford rent in NYC. I'm completely baffled why good-intented progressives can't figure this out; you don't put out food for stray animals then act mystified when they won't leave your house when you switch to Fancy Feast to Purina Cat Chow because it's cheaper.

There is already some precedence for this. The progressives say we should be a better and more caring society like the great countries of Europe:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/26/german-elderly-foreign-care-homes
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
And the jobs will just follow these people? I don't think shipping off the poor people will solve the problem.

There are jobs out there. Get one and have a lower COLA.

It helps NYC taxpayers in the short and long run by reducing housings costs.

If a family does not want to take the offer, that is their choice. They are being given a no strings opportunity to get out of NYC with a small stake until the get settled and working.

Both sides either win or things stay as is.