NY Times/ CBS news has really dropped all pretense of being non-partisan

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
My memory might be a little foggy, but I am pretty sure we just had an election in which Obama won 53 to 46.

And yet NY Times and CBS news recently published, on the front page, a poll in that had 48% Obama voters and 24% McCain voters.

and surprise surprise when you weight the numbers that much the results comes out heavily in favor of supporting Obama's position.

This poll happened to be a healthcare poll which showed 72% support for Obama's plan.

Read the details below to see how heavily skewed the results were and how this seems to be a blatant attempt by the highly partisan NY Times and CBS news to steer public opinion in Obama's direction.
A New York Times/CBS News poll released Saturday that showed broad bipartisan support for President Obama?s health care reform, over-sampled Obama voters compared to McCain voters, critics say.

The poll, administered June 12-16, found that 72 percent of respondents favored the creation of a government health-insurance plan that would compete with private insurers.

It also said 50 percent of respondents thought the government would do a better job providing medical coverage than private insurers, up from 30 percent in 2007; and that 59 percent thought the government would be better at holding down costs, up from 47 percent two years ago.

But critics including pollster Kellyanne Conway say the results are inaccurate because they are heavily skewed toward those who voted for Obama in the 2008 presidential election.

In addition, other indicators point toward a repeat of the defeat Hillary Clinton's proposed government-run faced in the early ?90?s.

Out of 895 respondents, 24 percent were Republicans, 38 percent Democrats, and 38 percent were independents, according to a June 20 release from CBS News. While the release says the sampling was conducted at random, those numbers are significantly below the 32.6 percent who identify themselves as Republican according to a May survey from the nonpartisan Rasmussen Reports.

Similarly, the Times/CBS poll said 48 percent of respondents had voted for Obama, versus 25 percent for McCain, a nearly two-to-one advantage for Obama supporters.

Had those results been reflected in the November presidential election, Obama would have garnered 66 percent of the vote to McCain?s 34 percent, Conway, president & CEO of ?the polling company,? told CNSNews.com.

?Was the vote 66-34? You tell me,? Conway said.

In 2008, Obama won 53 percent of the vote, McCain won 46 percent.

Conway said that the poll was skewed toward Democrats and Obama supporters because the Times and CBS made it so.

?Their original result was more in line (with other non-partisan polling for party identification) but they weighted those numbers,? Conway charged.

The random information gathered by the two media outlets originally saw fewer independents and Democrats, but their polling methodology saw those numbers shift at the expense of Republican representation. Conway called this a case of ?a conclusion in search of evidence.?

Janet Elder, editor for news surveys and election analysis at The New York Times, defended the poll?s methodology.

?Although some polling organizations do, The New York Times/CBS News poll does not weight by party ID,? she told CNSNews.com. ?We weight by characteristics that are known from census data.?

Scott Rasmussen, founder and CEO of Rasmussen Reports, a nonpartisan pollster, defended the veracity of the Times/CBS News poll -- but found it difficult.

?We have absolutely no idea what their weighting process is and what their technique is,? he told CNSNews.com. ?I believe that they did not make adjustments based on party (identification). I believe they go on other factors and simply report what comes out of that.?

Elder said in 19 out of every 20 cases, the results using their technique ?will differ by no more than 3 percentage points in either direction? of the outcome they would have had if they?d sought to interview ?all American adults.?

But Conway says the over-sampling of Democrats was consistent throughout the poll.

?Show me the other polls that are that low," she said. "If you look at the way Scott (Rasmussen) reports things, they?re very different from The New York Times. The Census is taken every 10 years, so what are they looking at? The 2000 Census??

?Almost nobody ever takes them to task for this, because they are CBS and the New York Times,? Conway added. ?It is true that more Americans are identifying themselves as Independents, but everyone is doing polling; no one (else) is getting these numbers,? Conway said.

The Times ran an accompanying story on the front page of the Sunday edition with the headline ?In Poll, Wide Support for Government Run Health.? The findings were also reported by most other major outlets.

The Times article interpreted the poll results as indicating broad, bipartisan support for government involvement in health care.

?Americans overwhelmingly support substantial changes to the health care system,? the article began, ?and (they) are strongly behind one of the most contentious proposals Congress is considering, a government-run insurance plan to compete with private insurers.?

But other key findings in the poll suggest, on the other hand, that Americans have not significantly changed their positions since the last time health-care reform was seriously considered by Congress, according to Conway.

?We are identical to where we were in 1993-94,? she told CNSNews.com, ?with only 51 percent of respondents even in the Democrat-skewing poll saying the health-care system needs fundamental changes, versus 52 percent in January 1994. When the question becomes whether the system needs to be completely rebuilt, 34 percent say yes in the NYT/CBS poll, versus 38 percent in 1994.

Additionally, the vast majority of Americans are satisfied with their own insurance coverage, as they were at the beginning of the Clinton administration. Approximately 77 percent in the current poll say they are at least somewhat satisfied.

Rasmussen points out that, in these areas, the Times/CBS poll was consistent with other polls.

?CBS, like everybody else, found that most people are satisfied with their health-care coverage,? he said. ?But they have qualms about the overall system. And that is the biggest single obstacle to reform: people do not want to change their own coverage.?

Conway agreed. Because of their satisfaction with their own coverage, Americans are unlikely to rock the boat.

?The difference this year could be that Barack Obama is a more compelling messenger than Hillary Clinton.? But, she added: ?Americans can do the math.?

They are hesitant to support the record expenditure it would take to pass sweeping health-care reform. Conway says.

"As they are deciding whether to take a vacation this summer or keep their child in private elementary school . . . they are asking to take a look at the ledger book now,? she added.

Americans like the words ?change? and ?reform,? she says, ?but then they find out that you can?t define those.? When they see the possibility of their own healthcare options changing, ?(T)hey discover that their reform is not someone else?s reform.?

Conway?s ?the polling company,? in conjunction with Americans for Tax Reform, is performing an audit of all numbers released on health-care reform, to be issued on Wednesday.

The Times/CBS poll reports a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. CBS did not return calls for comment.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
The lefties just lap this stuff up.

NY Times needs to go the way of the dino....
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Remember how the NYTimes polls were wrong about McCain in 2008?

Oh wait...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link


Political make up of the poll
27% liberal 37% mod 29 conservative.

And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%

So NY Times under counted conservatives by 11 points and over counted libs by 6 points.
I am thinking a 16 point swing would make a big difference.

And as always they over counted Dems vs Reps
25% R 38% D 31% I

According to the 2008 exit polls the make up of the people who actually vote in this country is:
32% R 39% D 29% I

So they under counted the Republicans by 7%.

No wonder they got the results they wanted.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
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CBS has been in BHO's back pocket since day one. You must have slept thru the last 6-8 months. ;)
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Hey PJ, any chance you might learn how to link your sources? It's one of those integrity issues, plus it makes it much easier to gain the information needed to refute -- or support -- your OP. I recognize this might reveal the right-wing rags you read for this tripe, but that's one of the hazards of relying on them for your current events education.

Without seeing the details behind the survey, I can only suspect this is another example of people on the right who don't understand science, specifically statistics and sampling methods. That's been the case the last umpteen times someone has posted a "blistering expose" like this.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link


Political make up of the poll
27% liberal 37% mod 29 conservative.

And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%

So NY Times under counted conservatives by 11 points and over counted libs by 6 points.
I am thinking a 16 point swing would make a big difference.

And as always they over counted Dems vs Reps
25% R 38% D 31% I

According to the 2008 exit polls the make up of the people who actually vote in this country is:
32% R 39% D 29% I

So they under counted the Republicans by 7%.

No wonder they got the results they wanted.
As expected, you fail at the science of Statistics and sampling methods. I'm sure the intended audience is lapping it all up, however, working themselves into a frenzy of righteous outrage.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Hey PJ, any chance you might learn how to link your sources? It's one of those integrity issues, plus it makes it much easier to gain the information needed to refute -- or support -- your OP. I recognize this might reveal the right-wing rags you read for this tripe, but that's one of the hazards of relying on them for your current event education.

Without seeing the details behind the survey, I can only suspect this is another example of people on the right who don't understand science, specifically statistics and sampling methods. That's been the case the last umpteen times someone has posted a "blistering expose" like this.
My second post includes a link to the poll data right from the NY Times.

Go read it for yourself. Plus I showed how incorrect their sampling is in that post too.

They miss political ideology by 16 points and party identity by 7 points. Both in favor of Obama's POV of course.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link


Political make up of the poll
27% liberal 37% mod 29 conservative.

And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%

So NY Times under counted conservatives by 11 points and over counted libs by 6 points.
I am thinking a 16 point swing would make a big difference.

And as always they over counted Dems vs Reps
25% R 38% D 31% I

According to the 2008 exit polls the make up of the people who actually vote in this country is:
32% R 39% D 29% I

So they under counted the Republicans by 7%.

No wonder they got the results they wanted.
As expected, you fail at the science of Statistics and sampling methods. I'm sure the intended audience is lapping it all up, however, working themselves into a frenzy of righteous outrage.
A fair and accurate poll would closely match the political and party affiliations of the people being polled, this poll clearly does not meet that criteria.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link
And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%
Hey Bubba, instead of just spouting numbers you ought to provide some context, unless you are intentionally trying to skew the numbers to support your thesis, which I know you would never do.

Here's that poll:

WaPo

Contained within is this gem:


"But, she noted, 73 percent of Republicans call themselves conservative, while only 38 percent of Democrats call themselves liberals. About 40 percent of Democrats like to describe themselves as "moderate."

Thanks for playing.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Here is ProJo's source.

Now you know why he failed to link it.

The Cybercast News Service was launched on June 16, 1998 as a news source for individuals, news organizations and broadcasters who put a higher premium on balance than spin and seek news that?s ignored or under-reported as a result of media bias by omission.

Study after study by the Media Research Center, the parent organization of CNSNews.com, clearly demonstrate a liberal bias in many news outlets ? bias by commission and bias by omission ? that results in a frequent double-standard in editorial decisions on what constitutes "news."
All the articles on CNS and MRC have a heavy right-wing lean.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Remember how the NYTimes polls were wrong about McCain in 2008?

Oh wait...
Oh wait what???

They were wrong.
http://pollingreport.com/wh08gen2.htm
CBS/NY Times poll Oct 25-29
McCain 39 Obama 52

So according to CBS NY Times nearly every late deciding person in the country decided to vote for McCain... :roll:

And another
http://pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm
Presidential Trial Heat
McCain 40 Obama 51

Missed Obama by 2 points and McCain by 6 points...
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
OP fail.
If they randomly selected people and happened to be 2:1 for Obama, as long as they disclose that, it's fine, doesn't mean there is an intentional bias.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Here is ProJo's source.

Now you know why he failed to link it.

The Cybercast News Service was launched on June 16, 1998 as a news source for individuals, news organizations and broadcasters who put a higher premium on balance than spin and seek news that?s ignored or under-reported as a result of media bias by omission.

Study after study by the Media Research Center, the parent organization of CNSNews.com, clearly demonstrate a liberal bias in many news outlets ? bias by commission and bias by omission ? that results in a frequent double-standard in editorial decisions on what constitutes "news."
All the articles on CNS and MRC have a heavy right-wing lean.
The source is irrelevent because we have the raw numbers to prove the bias.

I could edit out the article and just post the raw numbers to make the point.

CBS NY Times consistently polls in favor of Obama and Democrats.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
OP fail.
If they randomly selected people and happened to be 2:1 for Obama, as long as they disclose that, it's fine, doesn't mean there is an intentional bias.
So if they 'randomly' called people from Chicago then it would make the poll ok right??

Very few pollsters do NOT weight their results. Picking people are random will not get you a scientific poll.
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The source is irrelevent because we have the raw numbers to prove the bias.

I'll have remember to quote you on that in some future thread.

edit: Also, I've gotta ask. Did you even originally see it on CNSNews.com or FreeRepublic.com, which linked to it?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
I think the Obama administration actually has to approve any "article" before NY Times can publish it. ;)
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link
And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%
Hey Bubba, instead of just spouting numbers you ought to provide some context, unless you are intentionally trying to skew the numbers to support your thesis, which I know you would never do.

Here's that poll:

WaPo

Contained within is this gem:


"But, she noted, 73 percent of Republicans call themselves conservative, while only 38 percent of Democrats call themselves liberals. About 40 percent of Democrats like to describe themselves as "moderate."

Thanks for playing.

ProfJohn would never mislead us though!

ProfJohn.txt
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
More proof that the poll is total BS.
link


Political make up of the poll
27% liberal 37% mod 29 conservative.

And yet we just had another national poll that states conservatives out number liberals by a 2 to 1 margin 40% to 21%

So NY Times under counted conservatives by 11 points and over counted libs by 6 points.
I am thinking a 16 point swing would make a big difference.

And as always they over counted Dems vs Reps
25% R 38% D 31% I

According to the 2008 exit polls the make up of the people who actually vote in this country is:
32% R 39% D 29% I

So they under counted the Republicans by 7%.

No wonder they got the results they wanted.
As expected, you fail at the science of Statistics and sampling methods. I'm sure the intended audience is lapping it all up, however, working themselves into a frenzy of righteous outrage.
A fair and accurate poll would closely match the political and party affiliations of the people being polled, this poll clearly does not meet that criteria.
On the contrary, I expect the political and party affiliations of the people being polled EXACTLY matches the results they reported ... pretty much by definition. The relevant question is why didn't the demographics self-reported by those who agreed to take the poll match the reported demographics you chose to highlight. Once you understand that distinction and can answer it honestly, you'll understand how you fail at Stats and why your OP is baseless.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: cumhail
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The source is irrelevent because we have the raw numbers to prove the bias.

I'll have remember to quote you on that in some future thread.

edit: Also, I've gotta ask. Did you even originally see it on CNSNews.com or FreeRepublic.com, which linked to it?
Got it via a link on Drudge.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
ProfJohn:
You should realize that after an election, polls will show a larger margin of voters claiming to have voted for the winner than the actual election margin. Barack Obama may have won by only 6 points, but current polls show almost a two-to-one margin of people self-reporting having voted for him. The same phenomenon was found in 2000, when George W. Bush, though having lost the popular vote, registered a substantial majority self-reporting having voted Bush/Cheney.

Earth to PJ: a large number of non-voters will report having voted for the winner; a smaller number of voters will mis-report their vote, rather than admit supporting the loser.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
0
Originally posted by: OCguy
I think the Obama administration actually has to approve any "article" before NY Times can publish it. ;)

Thanks. I knew it had to be something like that. :)
I think they critique the CBS News before broadcast too.