NY State plans to subsidize Buffalo Bills new stadium

[Zorba]

I live in Nevada. I remember that grift very well.

A 4 day special session was held to rubber stamp a proposal to waste $750 million of public funds on a football stadium. Legislators who voted against taxing businesses with revenues over $4 million per year to fund a national worst education system lined up to raise taxes to give to a purported billionaire.

"But it's a tax on tourism so Nevadans won't be paying it!"

Except they do. The reality is that while most of the population and tourism exists in Southern Nevada all of the State offices exist in Northern Nevada. People from the north travel to the south all the time. They pay the taxes too. It's not just a tax on tourism.

That also ignores opportunity cost. That $750 million could few been spent on something else (education maybe?). It was a bad deal pushed through with no real consideration because some local yokels wanted their 5 minutes of national fame.

Don't forget, those higher tourism taxes discourage tourism, on the margins at least. I know I've abandoned many hotel reservations in Vegas after seeing how much higher the total price is vs the advertised price.

 

[iRONic]

Ugh... Pegula owns the Sabres also. Porking those WNYers during the NHL season.

 

[fskimospy]

I live in Nevada. I remember that grift very well.

A 4 day special session was held to rubber stamp a proposal to waste $750 million of public funds on a football stadium. Legislators who voted against taxing businesses with revenues over $4 million per year to fund a national worst education system lined up to raise taxes to give to a purported billionaire.

"But it's a tax on tourism so Nevadans won't be paying it!"

Except they do. The reality is that while most of the population and tourism exists in Southern Nevada all of the State offices exist in Northern Nevada. People from the north travel to the south all the time. They pay the taxes too. It's not just a tax on tourism.

That also ignores opportunity cost. That $750 million could few been spent on something else (education maybe?). It was a bad deal pushed through with no real consideration because some local yokels wanted their 5 minutes of national fame.

Not to mention that every dollar a tourist has to pay in hotel taxes is one less dollar they can spend on something else in Vegas. Local residents might not be paying the tax directly but they are paying for it in other ways.

 

[Zorba]

I generally agree - like with NIMBYism its mostly a case of bad incentives created by dumb government regulation, combined with the natural selfishness of people. Sports leagues have an antitrust exemption that allows them to abuse their monopolistic position in society and since there are only 32 NFL teams they have a lot of leverage to extort cities for stadium funding. The fans don't really care as their share of the tax cost is small compared to the benefits they get from it, and politicians know they will pay a high political price if the team leaves, but probably not if they waste a bunch of tax dollars to keep them there.

So it's basically a situation where bad government regulation leads to a situation where it's individually rational for all these different groups to do something that hurts society as a whole. Greedy owner gets a lot of money, sports fans keep their team, politicians get re-elected, everyone else gets screwed. It really is just like NIMBYism for housing!

Not sure you can really tie it all to the antitrust waiver. Cities/states dump stupid amounts of money into college and high school stadiums as well.

 

[fskimospy]

Not sure you can really tie it all to the antitrust waiver. Cities/states dump stupid amounts of money into college and high school stadiums as well.

Sure - even cities where everyone knows the teams aren't going anywhere often end up getting shaken down for money but I think if you look at stadiums by the % of cost comprised of public money you'll see a strong association between how much the public pays and how likely the team is to leave. The public paid like a third of the cost for the Eagles' stadium after all and like I said the Eagles aren't going anywhere. (at least not alive)

 

[manly]

Not sure you can really tie it all to the antitrust waiver. Cities/states dump stupid amounts of money into college and high school stadiums as well.

The Romans called it bread and circuses.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Sure - even cities where everyone knows the teams aren't going anywhere often end up getting shaken down for money but I think if you look at stadiums by the % of cost comprised of public money you'll see a strong association between how much the public pays and how likely the team is to leave. The public paid like a third of the cost for the Eagles' stadium after all and like I said the Eagles aren't going anywhere. (at least not alive)

Gold Jerry! Gold!

 

[soulcougher73]

Disgusting use of tax payer money. If he wants it, he can build it himself. Fucking whiney ass billionaires.

 

[SmCaudata]

Not sure you can really tie it all to the antitrust waiver. Cities/states dump stupid amounts of money into college and high school stadiums as well.

I'd argue they shouldn't do that either. Taxes and tuition should go to education, teacher salaries and facilities. Let the sports run through local communities with monies raised though fundraisers and fees.

 

[Zorba]

I'd argue they shouldn't do that either. Taxes and tuition should go to education, teacher salaries and facilities. Let the sports run through local communities with monies raised though fundraisers and fees.

I agree.

I'm not completely against school sports, but it should be reasonable. It's just really gotten out of hand the last couple decades.

 

[hal2kilo]

Don't forget, those higher tourism taxes discourage tourism, on the margins at least. I know I've abandoned many hotel reservations in Vegas after seeing how much higher the total price is vs the advertised price.

And don't forget the "resort" fees.

 

[Moonbeam]

I generally agree - like with NIMBYism its mostly a case of bad incentives created by dumb government regulation, combined with the natural selfishness of people. Sports leagues have an antitrust exemption that allows them to abuse their monopolistic position in society and since there are only 32 NFL teams they have a lot of leverage to extort cities for stadium funding. The fans don't really care as their share of the tax cost is small compared to the benefits they get from it, and politicians know they will pay a high political price if the team leaves, but probably not if they waste a bunch of tax dollars to keep them there.

So it's basically a situation where bad government regulation leads to a situation where it's individually rational for all these different groups to do something that hurts society as a whole. Greedy owner gets a lot of money, sports fans keep their team, politicians get re-elected, everyone else gets screwed. It really is just like NIMBYism for housing!

The difference, however, in my opinion, and I know you do not agree, is that increased consciousness would lead to places where people would build room for personal athletics of every kind where participation and spectator-ship would be free and housing where people can closely commune with nature. These are things that promote mental health of a higher order that what kids experience in cities. Professional sports and housing density is driven by money. Competition is hate. You focus on making competition fair, in my opinion, but not to eliminate it. I think that is the wrong way.

Competition is a way to make of yourself some useless conquest that tells you you are better than someone else. That is because we were robbed as children of our personal dignity by the constant threat we will not measure up.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The difference, however, in my opinion, and I know you do not agree, is that increased consciousness would lead to places where people would build room for personal athletics of every kind where participation and spectator-ship would be free and housing where people can closely commune with nature. These are things that promote mental health of a higher order that what kids experience in cities. Professional sports and housing density is driven by money. Competition is hate. You focus on making competition fair, in my opinion, but not to eliminate it. I think that is the wrong way.

Competition is a way to make of yourself some useless conquest that tells you you are better than someone else. That is because we were robbed as children of our personal dignity by the constant threat we will not measure up.

You just described a local park with some buds playing whatever

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

This, all of this

 

[manly]

I live in Nevada. I remember that grift very well.

A 4 day special session was held to rubber stamp a proposal to waste $750 million of public funds on a football stadium. Legislators who voted against taxing businesses with revenues over $4 million per year to fund a national worst education system lined up to raise taxes to give to a purported billionaire.

"But it's a tax on tourism so Nevadans won't be paying it!"

Except they do. The reality is that while most of the population and tourism exists in Southern Nevada all of the State offices exist in Northern Nevada. People from the north travel to the south all the time. They pay the taxes too. It's not just a tax on tourism.

That also ignores opportunity cost. That $750 million could few been spent on something else (education maybe?). It was a bad deal pushed through with no real consideration because some local yokels wanted their 5 minutes of national fame.

I never said it's 100% a tax on tourists, but if the real number is 97% then that's close enough.

What you argued applies more to the NYS situation than to Las Vegas, NV. The $750M spent on Allegiant Stadium wouldn't exist if not for the stadium project; it's not like money was pulled from the general fund and thrown at the Raiders.

As fkimospy stated, this kind of crony capitalism never makes fiscal sense for cities and counties. But it was Las Vegas' one chance to get an NFL team, and at least they're able to have non-Nevadans paying for the bulk of the financing.

 

[Pohemi]

Before the last time that *major* renovations were done on Lambeau field in Green Bay, such as the luxury skyboxes and higher nosebleed seats, it was put to a ballot to let voters decide whether or not to add an extra .5% to the statewide sales tax to help fund the renovations. It only raised the tax from 5% to 5.5%, and it overwhelmingly passed iirc. That's the fairest method for the taxpayers who pay for (part of) it, but there'll still be some unhappy with it. Those who voted against it.

Being up to one or a few people though for putting taxpayers across the state on the hook for that kind of wasteful funding is just sickening. It is even when people vote for it to approve it imo.

 

[SmCaudata]

Before the last time that *major* renovations were done on Lambeau field in Green Bay, such as the luxury skyboxes and higher nosebleed seats, it was put to a ballot to let voters decide whether or not to add an extra .5% to the statewide sales tax to help fund the renovations. It only raised the tax from 5% to 5.5%, and it overwhelmingly passed iirc. That's the fairest method for the taxpayers who pay for (part of) it, but there'll still be some unhappy with it. Those who voted against it.

Being up to one or a few people though for putting taxpayers across the state on the hook for that kind of wasteful funding is just sickening. It is even when people vote for it to approve it imo.

Except it's not. Sports teams are military, police, schools, roads... They are not required for a functioning society. It should have used optional "round up" at checkout or pull tabs to fund it. It should have an opt in tax.

 

[Pohemi]

Except it's not. Sports teams are military, police, schools, roads... They are not required for a functioning society. It should have used optional "round up" at checkout or pull tabs to fund it. It should have an opt in tax.

I agree, that's why I said it's all still wasteful spending in my opinion. Not everyone would agree with me, especially in WI in regards to support for the Packers, heh. If there's one team in the NFL that's never, ever moving...it might be GB.
By "fairest method" I just mean that I've seen/read about, decided by voters across the state as opposed to a legislature or exploratory board.

Edit to add- I think those renovations at Lambeau were 50mil, not even close to the 850mil in NY. Renovations and additions vs. new stadium though...big difference, heh. That was at least 25 years ago too iirc.

 

[dullard]

I've long wanted a federal tax of 100% of the local subsidies that businesses get. Let the business choose the location based on the right combination of employees, local resources, etc. Instead of having taxpayer's funds distort the decisions. Divided we fall.

 

[Moonbeam]

I've long wanted a federal tax of 100% of the local subsidies that businesses get. Let the business choose the location based on the right combination of employees, local resources, etc. Instead of having taxpayer's funds distort the decisions. Divided we fall.

The whole intention of competition is to divide. Down that path is the world you see before you, mites in a cheese eating their way to when the cheese wheel collapses.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I've long wanted a federal tax of 100% of the local subsidies that businesses get. Let the business choose the location based on the right combination of employees, local resources, etc. Instead of having taxpayer's funds distort the decisions. Divided we fall.

Every time some big company does shopping for tax incentives I want to throw my phone at the wall when cities line up to play that game.

The *only* winning move is for everyone to not play. The second one city breaks rank and offers incentives, it becomes a race to the bottom where everyone loses. Just look at Foxconn's plans in Wisconsin or Amazon's HQ2

 

[hal2kilo]

Every time some big company does shopping for tax incentives I want to throw my phone at the wall when cities line up to play that game.

The *only* winning move is for everyone to not play. The second one city breaks rank and offers incentives, it becomes a race to the bottom where everyone loses. Just look at Foxconn's plans in Wisconsin or Amazon's HQ2

Boeing paid Washington state back for it's tax breaks by moving it's corporate headquarters to Chicago.

 

[Zorba]

Boeing paid Washington state back for it's tax breaks by moving it's corporate headquarters to Chicago.

And when it got the biggest tax breaks in history for the 787 and now has zero 787 manufacturing in Washington and massively shrunk the employee base there otherwise, too.

 

[Moonbeam]

You just described a local park with some buds playing whatever

Yes at a min a bike ride from a kids front door.

 

[Paratus]

Every time some big company does shopping for tax incentives I want to throw my phone at the wall when cities line up to play that game.

The *only* winning move is for everyone to not play. The second one city breaks rank and offers incentives, it becomes a race to the bottom where everyone loses. Just look at Foxconn's plans in Wisconsin or Amazon's HQ2

But without those tax breaks how is the state government supposed to strong arm companies into supporting their regressive social policies that hurt many of the employees of those companies.

Bet you didn’t think of that.