nVidia vs ATI = ultimate deathmatch?

[Pyro]

The way I see things, 2001 will be a great year for video cards. I personally think that nVidia and ATi are more or less in strength. THink about it.

now that nvidia have brought 3dfx and their techs this is what they have:
SLI, tile based rendering, an awesome proc (NV20)
similarly ATi have almost the same thing
they got MAXX, a type of SLI (not as good, but I guess they can work on it), tile based rendering tech from ArtX (if I am correct) and an awesome chip (R200). It is also said that current radeons cannot be in a MAXX config because of timing issues, but it could be worked in into the r200.

the only ting left is drivers. and While nvidia's drivers are clearly better, I've heard that ATi have started to shape up and deliver some decent drivers. Throw in the fact that they have HyperZ, beter image quality and awesome multimedia and you got one wicked card.


2001 should be really interesting. So interesting is that I still havent decided which card to get for my new comp (palomino machine...)

 

[RagingGuardian]

How about you get a current gen card since those cards are gonna cost a pretty penny?

Also don't expect to see a card from Nvidia based on 3DFX technology next year either.

 

[Finality]

18 months is the approximate time it takes Nvidia to design a new processor. NV20 has taken a bit longer but most probably due to DX8/X-box development.

 

[j@cko]

only if ATI's driver team IMPROVE in a big way...

 

[Hulk]

Both ATI and nVidia will survive and prosper.

The video card market is huge and there is room for both of them. It would be difficult for one company to fill all of the "gaps" in the market. Low end, high end, super high end, mobile, capture cards, etc...

 

[xyyz]

I think Ati's bigger worry is matrox... not so much nVidia, considering their primary interest is the OEM market.

 

[hans007]

the video card market is huge, but there are new competitors. Mainly VIA, Intel , Micron , SIS, and ALI. nvidia and ATI cant compete with those on the most important thing of all.... PRICE

 

[Modeps]

hans007,
i dont mean to laugh but teeheehee, your list makes me giggle like a little school girl.
comparing Intel, SiS and VIA to nVidia is funny. funny funny. tee hee...

sorry, not much sleep and when i start laughing i cant stop.

EDIT: i forgot to tell you the point. even if those companies prices were like 10 bucks, i wouldnt waste my money on those cards.

 

[bluemax]

Careful what you say... ATI especially, but even Trident and SiS have been making some decent product lately. The new SiS is not quite a Geforce as far as I know, but pretty darned close.
Would YOU buy a rock solid 64MB card with the speed just a hair under a Geforce1/MX? Well, what about if the price was only $50US? I don't know about you, but I'd sure want to take a closer look!

 

[Modeps]

actually, no i wouldnt. and i didnt mention ATI because i think they are close to the same category as nVidia. I remember back in the day of early computing anyone who was using a trident video card was laughable... it was the generic card that came with most system and they sucked. Trident makes sub-par products simply for "value" systems...while that may be fine for other people, its not for myself and plenty of other anandtechers.

 

[randomlinh]

i think that's exactly what we're lookin at here.... trident was the basic card that went to everyone.

nVidia vs ATI, maybe in the "hardcore" dept, but what it comes down to is who snags the OEM deals. And VIA/SiS/Intel all have the integrated stuff in the mobo.. very very cheap and hard to compete against

 

[Modeps]

HP and Compaq have already announced that they will be using nvidia and Gateway also offers nVidia solutions.

In my opinion, with the exception of Dell (which i havnt been keeping up to date with their news), nVidia already has a large foothold in the OEM market due to the fact that they produce better chips than SiS, Intel and VIA.

 

[bluemax]

Did you even read my post? I was saying how SiS is almost finished making a very high-end chip (for them) which will be a direct competitor to the Geforce lineup. If it's rock-solid stable (or at least as good as Geforces are now...) and only half the price, it's well worth a second look.
Or are you so stuck on nVidia (like Hardware) that everyone else sucks just because they're not nVidia?

 

[Modeps]

bluemax, i read your post and i answered it... i wouldnt buy a card that was the equal of a geforce 1/mx. It may be a high end card for them, but it isnt for me or many of us for that matter.

Im not stuck on nVidia like Hardware, im just stating the facts coupled with my opinions, which is how discussions are continued.

 

[rahvin]

<<Did you even read my post? I was saying how SiS is almost finished making a very high-end chip (for them) which will be a direct competitor to the Geforce lineup.>>

Undoubtably like all previous SIS chipsets it will have decent 2D performance, 3d performance that is no where near the level claimed and drivers that make ATI look like driver gods. But feel free to bet on it all you want...

 

[DonNiggera]

Hey Blumaxx,

Have you thought about Nvidia's cheap line up of cards? I.E. the Vanta, Vanta LT,
MX, M64. Those prices rival SiS's *Or as I call them, Sissy's*, Tridents, and the other
crappy company's prices. I would buy a Nvidia Vanta LT 8mb before any SiS card, or Trident
card. I've used some SiS cards, and even the Trident 4875 *haha*. They all sucked. My
friend Dustin has an Onboard SiS 760, I think it is, and it sucks it's video memory from
the system memory! How crappy is that? He only has 32mb ram. He can hardly play Quake 3
outside of 640x480, and that's his favorite game, bless hit little heart.
Oh well...


*If I have a grammatical error, correct me, don't flame me!*

 

[erub]

donniggera: may be now you know what to get him for the holidays - a new stick of 128 mb RAM

 

[Rectalfier]

I don't see how things could get anymore uncertain.

With Nvidia trying to move into the OEM chipset market, I think they may be getting too greedy and spreading themselves a little too thin. It seems they want Nvidia Inside on every computer. Their push into the OEM chipset business could smack them in the face. OEMS want cheap technology, not price/performance technology. Integrated chipsets are meant for the sub $500 and sub $1000 computer market. Nvidia has played all their cards right so far, but many companies fail when they do not focus on the market that made them successful in the first place, just look at 3dfx.

ATI has been coming closer and closer to becoming the high end card maker. With the release of the Radeon they even had the fastest card out for a short while. I think if ATI can get their drivers up to snuff, and push their product releases up they may have a fighting chance.

We will have to wait untill the NV20 and ATI's rebutal to the NV20 is released. Untill then, I'm not going to buy any video cards or stock(damn TDFX).

 

[CQuinn]

I don't think 2001 will be a great year for video cards, but it might be a
good year for video card companies.

nvidia/3dfx will spend a lot of time and resources working out what projects
to keep, kill, and merge into future products.

ATI will adjust its market position against nvidia, continue to make OEM deals
and promote the first-gen Radeon series, while ramping up production of the
R200 and creating a unified driver base for chips going forward.

IMO, It will be half-way thru 2001 before we see any announcements worthy
of note from either company. (Announcements of product I can actually buy,
instead of just drooling over &quot;preliminary reviews&quot.

The other companies will try to take advantage of this &quot;quiet&quot; period to
push their solutions on the market.

I have to agree with the point Intake77 is trying to make. No matter how
good those other companies cards become, as long as they fall short on
features or quality from the Matrox, Nvidia, and ATI cards then they will
not get top billing in Anandtech (an other sites) reviews, and subsequently
they will not be the first choice of the majority of people who come to
forums like this and who recommend these products to friends, neighbors and
customers.

For the SiS card to succeed, it has to do more than just perform, it also
has to meet the demand for regular driver updates (something ATI is now
coming to terms with), it has to maintain both speed and visual quality
for 2D and 3D performance at various color levels, and it needs vocal support
(or at least lip service) from the various game designers. Otherwise most
of the gaming community will laugh in their face.
Also keep in mind that most of the integrated video solutions are consider only
for the low end boards, as the current assumption is that power builders are
going to slap in the card of thier choice no matter what is already built
onto the board.

 

[Modeps]

Rectal,
You may have a valid point, but OEM manufacturers would like to include cheap tech AND performance so their computers dont get such a bad rep for being the POS's that they are. the chipsets that nVidia are putting into the latest computers are equivilant the original TNT, hell of a card but its outdated, making it cheap for everyone.

The difference between what 3dfx did and what nVidia is doing is monumental. From the second they started making their own video cards, they went downhill... if they had stayed with just producing chipsets, they would still be around. nVidia is still producing chipsets and now they are simply expanding their target markets. Its about time, seeing that they have been just focusing on people like us for a few years now.

 

[Rectalfier]

Yes, I suppose they are very different. I am just worried they are taking away time from developing cutting edge products and putting it towards OEM garbage.

If NV20 and their DDR chipset kicks ass, I will have to buy a lot of their stock.

 

[Modeps]

Rectal,
I dont think you have to worry about that too much... They are putting products that they have already developed into the crapmachines... very little work to be done to push them on over.

 

[randypj]

Rectalfier--You make some valid points. And, no, nothing is certain. But, didn't we know for a long time that the way 3dFX was going about things was just plain wrong? How could they possibly see the way the video market was shaping up, and keep their API propritary? Shouldn't they have learned from the Apple debacle?

If Nvda begins to rest on their laurels, as 3DFX did, then, I will be worried. I expect them to make me more money in the next 3 to 5 years, than any other stock I own. If I don't see them continue to innovate, then I won't own them.

I can't see that nvda will stumble now. I only see them gaining more market share from here. Reasons:

1. Their market segmentation has been flawless so far. They now have a card for pretty much every budget. Possibly lacking only in highend specialty graphics. Nvda R US.

2. Doesn't it appear that they are becoming the standard by which the others are judged?

3. Manufacturing costs will continue to decrease. This will allow them to price their products as necessary, for the market.

4. They appear to be aggressively courting OEM's and the laptop market. Hey, if they can have it all, it just makes it tougher for competitors.

5. Their past product to market time has been amazing. As, has their driver support. Even for legacy products.

Someone mentioned Dell. I did see some Nvda cards in their outlet pc's. I'm not sure, but I think they have an agreement with Dell.
--Randy

 

[Noriaki]

<< and it sucks it's video memory from the system memory! How crappy is that? >>

That's actually pretty standard for integrated video...but I have to agree it's pretty damn crappy.

No I must agree with Intake77, none of these little integrators can compete with nVidia...only ATi has a shot at that...and I owned a Radeon for a while, EXCELLENT hardware...I like the Radeon cards much more than the GeForce2...but the Radeon has crap for software...I'm sorry those drivers just don't cut it. Not for the price I paid for it.

You need good hardware and good drivers. 3dfx, nVidia and Matrox all had that in the V3, TNT2 and G400 (the G400 was a bit late..but with TurboGL that thing was sweet compared to a TNT2). But since the G400 matrox has made lateral steps as best as far as us hardcore gamers are concerned....Then 3dfx with V5 and nVidia with GeForce series both have good hardware and good drivers, now 3dfx is closing down.
That leaves nVidia with good hardware and good drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if the R200 is a nicer piece of hardware than the NV20 but without drivers to back it up I can't put them up with nVidia.

This integrated crap market can make a lot of money for nVidia and others I'm sure. But I don't care how much money that crap can make them, I don't want to touch it because it's crappy crap. I didn't custom build my rig so I could put a crappity crap-crap integrated vidoe card in it so that I can get 12fps in Doom3. I want good performance! And I don't wnat to be stuck at NV20 forever....(oh yeah did I mention, integrated video is pretty crappy?)

 

[Orbius]

Don't worry about Ati, 65% of their sales come from Asia. China is going to be the growth segment of the world as far as PC sales go, so Ati looks pretty well setup.