Nvidia responds to SM3 claims

[imported_Rampage]

NVIDIA:

The current debate over WHQL waivers and SM3 compliance forces us to take a public stance regarding these issues. Microsoft is the ultimate judge of pass/fail for a particular hardware/software combination. NVIDIA hardware passes WHQL as judged by Microsoft, and fully supports all the features of SM3. Other hardware also passes WHQL for SM3, while not necessarily fully supporting all of the SM3 features.

When a vendor fails to implement a required feature (such as Vertex Texture), typically Microsoft would either fail to certify the hardware/driver, or issue a waiver for the lack of the feature. We would not expect tests to be changed or the interpretation of the DirectX specification to be changed.

A failure in a WHQL DCT test is by itself not an indication of hardware or driver flaws. There can be several causes for this, including test errors, and hardware mismatches with refrast (the Microsoft software reference rasterizer). A mismatch with refrast can be due to the hardware producing superior, inferior, or simply different images than refrast.

WHQL failures and errata by themselves are a poor and inaccurate indication of Windows and DirectX compliance. Microsoft is the sole arbiter of WHQL passage, and further questions on this topic should be directed to Dean Lester.

link

 

[imported_Rampage]

Well I thought it was interesting at least.

 

[5150Joker]

Translation:

Our hardware passes WHQL, 'nuff said. Oh yah ATi doesn't even have vertex texture fetch and they pass so that means WHQL is worthless.

 

[jiffylube1024]

I think Nvidia should invade ATI, kidnap Ruby, and then sell her into slavery. That would make a good story.

 

[Fadey]

ATI use to be such a good company with the 9000 series and the x800.. now its all ripping off share holders , 2 month late orders.. jesus lol

 

[Rage187]

At least Nv came out and cleared out the FUD Ati kiddies keep spreading. They do however need to come out an address the shimmering problem.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Fadey
ATI use to be such a good company with the 9000 series and the x800.. now its all ripping off share holders , 2 month late orders.. jesus lol

Don't forget that ATI's CEO Dave Orton's name is actually an anagram of "a vent odor," clearly indicating that something at ATI stinks.

 

[caz67]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
I think Nvidia should invade ATI, kidnap Ruby, and then sell her into slavery. That would make a good story.

LOL..well said

 

[dfloyd]

I think many are missing the point.

M$ decides what is and what is not WHQL. If they say it is, it is period as its their standard. Nvidia just sounds like they are whining now with this statement. Funny thing is even with what Nvidia has or does not have the general consensus is that Ati still has better overall image quality especially in games that have the shimmering or shadow problems.

So you can pat Nvidia on the back all you want. They did release a good product. A product that has a severe graphics bug imo and looking at current benchmarks it looks like once Ati releases their next cards they are going to clearly take over the high end lead. Honestly does not matter one way or the other to me, but the thing that does suprise me is the way many are intepreting this press release.

If Nvidia wants to do something about it, have them duck down, get more yeilds of faster cards and hit Ati where it hurts (Or even better fix some of the major bugs going on, even with the 7800s). Making statements like this just make Nvidia look like little kids whining. Waah he gota bigger ice cream than I did.... Waaaaah.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
I think Nvidia should invade ATI, kidnap Ruby, and then sell her into slavery. That would make a good story.

Or give her to MadMod Mike as a spoil of war.

 

[biostud]

SM3.0 is a standard and it would be best if both companies followed the standard 100%. But the real question to me is wether or not these features are really that important for running games. If these fetures really aren't that usefull or if they only used in very seldom occasions does it really matter that much? Also software programmers probably know which of these features that are not or only poor implemented.

So until someone says and show that these features are important for something else than following the standard 100% instead of 99.9%, I don't really care.

 

[Griswold]

Originally posted by: Rage187
At least Nv came out and cleared out the FUD Ati kiddies keep spreading. They do however need to come out an address the shimmering problem.

Oh really? What did they clear up? That MS is the judge and nobody else can decide what is SM3.0 compliant and what is not? We already knew that.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Griswold

Originally posted by: Rage187
At least Nv came out and cleared out the FUD Ati kiddies keep spreading. They do however need to come out an address the shimmering problem.

Oh really? What did they clear up? That MS is the judge and nobody else can decide what is SM3.0 compliant and what is not? We already knew that.

What is cleared up is the FUD that ATI does SM3.0 "right" and Nvidia doesn't. Turns out neither company is 100% compliant and has failures in testing. That is all anybody needs to know.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
What is cleared up is the FUD that ATI does SM3.0 "right" and Nvidia doesn't. Turns out neither company is 100% compliant and has failures in testing. That is all anybody needs to know.

ATi is 100% DX9 compliant, and does not fail the any of the DCT tests. Vertex texture fetch is optional, and not required.

But as I said before, none of this matters to me. I dont care if, or why NV fails some test, so long as it doesnt have a negative impact on games. Which is hasnt so far, and doenst look like it will in the for seeable future. So this whole deal is moot, to me.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
What is cleared up is the FUD that ATI does SM3.0 "right" and Nvidia doesn't. Turns out neither company is 100% compliant and has failures in testing. That is all anybody needs to know.

ATi is 100% DX9 compliant, and does not fail the any of the DCT tests. Vertex texture fetch is optional, and not required.

But as I said before, none of this matters to me. I dont care if, or why NV fails some test, so long as it doesnt have a negative impact on games. Which is hasnt so far, and doenst look like it will in the for seeable future. So this whole deal is moot, to me.

I would actually need to see the test results for myself before I believe your 100% compliancy claim. There cannot be a single red mark in there for 100%.

I guess it's like taking an exam in school. You don't have to get a perfect score to pass. usually 65 to 70 will do. If you pass the test with a 65 or 70 (whatever is required to consider passable) then your report card will have a passing grade on it.

Anyway, I believe I was referring to SM3.0 compliancy. Should have specified.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
ATi is 100% DX9 compliant, and does not fail the any of the DCT tests. Vertex texture fetch is optional, and not required.

The press release says that vertex texture is required for SM3, but it sounds like ATI got a waiver on the feature.
Do you have a link from Microsoft that states vertex texture is optional?

Methinks the ATI engineers that stated online that its "optional", are saying its optional due to the waiver they recieved..
If I'm wrong, please do correct me with documentation from Microsoft.
It'd be good to see you backup your claim.

It sounds to me like Nvidia has the better Shader Model 3 implementation.
Look at the facts, MS certified BOTH products as SM3, but Nvidia supports all the features point-blank.. optional AND required.

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
What is cleared up is the FUD that ATI does SM3.0 "right" and Nvidia doesn't. Turns out neither company is 100% compliant and has failures in testing. That is all anybody needs to know.

It is a shame that MS doesnt enforce their own standards, but if it works with DX9C games then whats the difference IMO.


PS. Ackmed- A Geforce DDR is DX9 compliant.. what you said basically means nothing. All you need to be "DX9 compliant" are DX9 drivers, you dont need the DX9 feature set to be DX9 compliant.
You're welcome.

 

[Griswold]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Griswold

Originally posted by: Rage187
At least Nv came out and cleared out the FUD Ati kiddies keep spreading. They do however need to come out an address the shimmering problem.

Oh really? What did they clear up? That MS is the judge and nobody else can decide what is SM3.0 compliant and what is not? We already knew that.

What is cleared up is the FUD that ATI does SM3.0 "right" and Nvidia doesn't. Turns out neither company is 100% compliant and has failures in testing. That is all anybody needs to know.

Yea, but that is not what Rage187 meant, I think.

ATI says Nvidia doesnt do it right and Nvidia says the same about ATI cards. But they both pass WHQL.

So, what should I believe now? Certainly not that everything is 100% cleared up here.

That press release is worthless, both ATI and Nvidia talk alot. Microsoft should comment on this non-issue (anyone had any shader related problems lately with their vid cards? Didnt think so).

 

[imported_Rampage]

Actually the press release clears up quite a bit.

Unless you don't want anythign cleared up? Then go ahead and bury your head in the sand and continue to spread FUD?

A mismatch with refrast can be due to the hardware producing superior, inferior, or simply different images than refrast.

Thats the reason for the Nvidia failure in the tests.

And ATI doesnt support 100% of the optional/required Shader Model 3 feature set.
I'm awaiting on Ackmed to reply with documentation from MS proving that ATI didnt just get a waiver on their SM3 feature set.

For now we'll just go with, ATI doesnt support all the SM3 features, either required or optional... but Nvidia does.

Amazing how Nvidia clears things up right away on their hardware. But ATI no one knows if they are saying Vertex Texture is optional because MS waived it, or if it truley is.

Either way, from what I've read about that specific feature.. I'd rather have it than not have it. Its used in Pacific Fighters for the water among other things.

 

[Gstanfor]

One of the reasons why nVidia produce different images from refrast is because their texture filtering hardware has 8 bits of resolution (this has been a defacto standard in 3D graphics since texturing and filtering were first invented).

Refrast uses only 5 bits of resolution as do all ATi R3xx & R4xx graphics chips (this information is directly from several ATi engineers - search the beyond3d forums). I don't know if R5xx continues to use only 5 bits, but given it is based on the R3xx architecture I would expect that it does.

I'm always amused to hear ATi supporters touting better IQ when their supported hardware can even filter textures according to a long established industry standard (but it does support microsofts reference standard, and we all know how well respected microsofts "standards" are in the wider computing industry).

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
Either way, from what I've read about that specific feature.. I'd rather have it than not have it. Its used in Pacific Fighters for the water among other things.

I'd forgotten about pacific fighters. Those with the X1800 XT's should test that title and see what results they obtain. I'm willing to bet that ATi's much touted WHQL compliance won't buy them much here...

 

[ubergeekmeister]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Translation:

Our hardware passes WHQL, 'nuff said. Oh yah ATi doesn't even have vertex texture fetch and they pass so that means WHQL is worthless.

Sticking it to ATI, and they deserve it too. Fancy some silly illdesigned video card being advertised and promoted better and all that crap about SM3 done right. Ruuuubish ATI Ruuuubish.

 

[BenSkywalker]

ATi is 100% DX9 compliant

That is a very amusing statement. Did you know that the R3x0 line isn't fully DX6 compliant? Not 9, not 8 or even DX7- they were still missing basic features of DX6. To be fair to ATi, the same could and still can be said about nVidia but you would have to be extremely differently abled to think that any part released matches up with a then current D3D release 100%.