[NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Series Updates]

[CaiNaM]

NVIDIA held a conference call for members of the press this morning. Apart from downplaying of ATi R420 architecture at the first half of the presentation slides, here are some latest updates on the GeForce 6800 GPUs :

GeForce 6800 Ultra and 6800 are shipping now. GeForce 6800 GT soon.
Shader Model 3.0 provides Full 32 bit Precision, Conditional Loops and Branches, Geometry Instancing, Dynamic Flow Control
64 bit floating point texture filtering and blending is necessary for high dynamic range effects and stunning visuals, the data format of choice for film (OpenEXR)
Superscalar architecture has large untapped upside (version 1.0 of superscalar compiler barely taps power of 6800 architecture)
ForceWare drivers just beginning to unleash the true power
Significant free performance increases in the coming months
350W PS is minimum requirement for 6800 Ultra
300W PS is minimum requirement for 6800 GT and 6800
Apparently, the best is yet to unleash from the 6800 series as claimed by NVIDIA.

Source

 

[Nebor]

I'd say that too if I were them.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'd say that too if I were them.

True... they sounded confident that the 5800 Ultra was going to pound the 9700 Pro into the ground too. However, it's preliminary benchmarks didn't look as good as the 6800's does... so I'm more inclined to believe them this time. You have to be realistic though... new drivers aren't going to give you 150 FPS average in Far Cry vs. 65 FPS average currently.

There's three key features I see in the 6800 series that could make it superior to the x800 series...

1. 
   1.) SM 3.0... displacement mapping could ad A LOT of realism to games
   2.) Geometry Instancing... this could give the 6800 a HUGE advantage in RTS type games
   3.) Media Encoding/Decoding... if the GPU and CPU could work together to encode video in 1/2 the time, that would be HUGE... that would allow easy recording of HDTV in real time

 

[Delorian]

But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'd say that too if I were them.

You have to be realistic though... new drivers aren't going to give you 150 FPS average in Far Cry vs. 65 FPS average currently.

but there is room for a 10% - 15% improvement

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'd say that too if I were them.

You have to be realistic though... new drivers aren't going to give you 150 FPS average in Far Cry vs. 65 FPS average currently.

but there is room for a 10% - 15% improvement

We hope. Free performance increases are nice, but they shouldn't be banked on when making a purchase, because they might not happen, or might take a loooong time to get there.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'd say that too if I were them.

You have to be realistic though... new drivers aren't going to give you 150 FPS average in Far Cry vs. 65 FPS average currently.

but there is room for a 10% - 15% improvement

Yes... 10-15% is realistic...

 

[nitromullet]

GeForce 6800 Ultra and 6800 are shipping now. GeForce 6800 GT soon.
Shader Model 3.0 provides Full 32 bit Precision, Conditional Loops and Branches, Geometry Instancing, Dynamic Flow Control
64 bit floating point texture filtering and blending is necessary for high dynamic range effects and stunning visuals, the data format of choice for film (OpenEXR)
Superscalar architecture has large untapped upside (version 1.0 of superscalar compiler barely taps power of 6800 architecture)
ForceWare drivers just beginning to unleash the true power
Significant free performance increases in the coming months
350W PS is minimum requirement for 6800 Ultra
300W PS is minimum requirement for 6800 GT and 6800
Apparently, the best is yet to unleash from the 6800 series as claimed by NVIDIA.

That is my biggest concern at this point.

 

[MajorCatastrophe]

What about those other comments?
(parentheses is my own additions)


"ATi wanted SM3.0 support but didn't know how to implement it."
(...in such a way that they'd have no trouble producing it, clocking it high, and getting good
real world performance to end users that they can appreciate in the apps they use)

"ATi sampled four different clockspeeds to four different reviewers!"
(...but in each case spanked our lovely new 6800U even though it's year old tech)

"X800XT is an act of desperation!"
(...but the 6800U extreme, that we can't actually produce in any real quantity, isn't)

and various other comments taken out of context / information twisted into disinformation

etc...

IF these slides are genuine, and not fanboy fud, which they appear to be (surely no professional would put this crap together) then nVidia == twats.

Who in nVidia believes this crap? Maybe the marketing people would like everyone to believe this, but surely the people on the ground that really count know better than this?

I could go on, but I've had two hours sleep in 24hrs so I won't.

/rant

Edited to add the desperation comment. Couldn't resist.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'd say that too if I were them.

You have to be realistic though... new drivers aren't going to give you 150 FPS average in Far Cry vs. 65 FPS average currently.

but there is room for a 10% - 15% improvement

We hope. Free performance increases are nice, but they shouldn't be banked on when making a purchase, because they might not happen, or might take a loooong time to get there.

In this particular instance I believe we can. The beta testing is months ahead of what the final release to the public is obviously and the performance boosts being seen there is likely the source for the confident remarks about the as of yet, unleashed performance.

 

[Killrose]

When they say the 6800U and 6800 are shipping now. Do they mean the chips are shipping to the various card manufacturing partners or that actuall finnished cards are?

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Matthias99
We hope. Free performance increases are nice, but they shouldn't be banked on when making a purchase, because they might not happen, or might take a loooong time to get there.

In this particular instance I believe we can. The beta testing is months ahead of what the final release to the public is obviously and the performance boosts being seen there is likely the source for the confident remarks about the as of yet, unleashed performance.

Possibly, but it's all just speculation at this point. What bothers me is people who spout "Well, NVIDIA has increased performance via drivers *before*, so this time they're sure to get [insert percentage here]% more performance." There are no guarantees, PR claims notwithstanding. NVIDIA has sounded extremely confident and not lived up to it before (such as with the 6800U launch).

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Given that we have been told some existing games (Far Cry, Painkiller) will be patched to use nVidia's new features this year, and that some others with them incorporated already will be released soon, I think ATIs position will be weakened with each game released.

Not to mention there are guys like me who just aren't too crazy about buying the R300 core for a third or fourth time. I got bored with it the first two, I'm guessing having a souped up R300 would bore me soon again.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

It's pretty shocking, isn't it Jeff?

 

[SilverTrine]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

What about the designer of Far Cry? He says Sm3.0 does nothing that Sm2.0 cant do. Is he an Ati fanboy too, I guess the 'Way its meant to be played' Nvidia logo as the game loads is a giveaway he's an ATi fanboy.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Matthias99
We hope. Free performance increases are nice, but they shouldn't be banked on when making a purchase, because they might not happen, or might take a loooong time to get there.

In this particular instance I believe we can. The beta testing is months ahead of what the final release to the public is obviously and the performance boosts being seen there is likely the source for the confident remarks about the as of yet, unleashed performance.

Possibly, but it's all just speculation at this point. What bothers me is people who spout "Well, NVIDIA has increased performance via drivers *before*, so this time they're sure to get [insert percentage here]% more performance." There are no guarantees, PR claims notwithstanding. NVIDIA has sounded extremely confident and not lived up to it before (such as with the 6800U launch).

You're preachin' to the choir now Let's not forget we haven't even begun to see the capabilities of the dedicated video processor so that's an area where nv40 could greatly "enhance performance", just not for 3D. I personally believe he is safe saying it when he says there's better performance to come but only time will tell, since NDAs prevent anyone from doing it now.

Now, to beat the tin foil beenie bunch to the punch, I'll forward a conspiracy theory, ATi fanbois did this as a "Wag the dog" tactic to deflect some of the current heat ATi is getting from the community EDIT: Looks like nV fessed up so no conspiracy to pursue There goes 3 pages of a great flame war right in the toilet

 

[vshah]

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

What about the designer of Far Cry? He says Sm3.0 does nothing that Sm2.0 cant do. Is he an Ati fanboy too, I guess the 'Way its meant to be played' Nvidia logo as the game loads is a giveaway he's an ATi fanboy.

intel's SSE or SSE2 do nothing a processor without them couldn't do. they just do it faster if used correctly.



and i do think newer drivers will improve performance for both the x800 and 6800 series, perhaps more so in the 6800s case since its a new architecture. unless nvidia is completely incompetent which i don't think they are.


-Vivan

 

[Delorian]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Given that we have been told some existing games (Far Cry, Painkiller) will be patched to use nVidia's new features this year, and that some others with them incorporated already will be released soon, I think ATIs position will be weakened with each game released.

Not to mention there are guys like me who just aren't too crazy about buying the R300 core for a third or fourth time. I got bored with it the first two, I'm guessing having a souped up R300 would bore me soon again.

I agree with that, I didn't buy the 9800 pro/xt when it came out and I won't buy the 6800. At least not until they are usable and much cheaper. Nvidia albeit is a more expensive venture, they definitely have the future planned better than ATI does.

 

[rbV5]

You're preachin' to the choir now Let's not forget we haven't even begun to see the capabilities of the dedicated video processor so that's an area where nv40 could greatly "enhance performance", just not for 3D.

Just "when" are we going to see PVP in action? The cards are going to be on the shelves soon.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

What sort of memory chips will the GT be using?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.aspx?family_cd=GME1001

Looking at this Samsung only makes memory chips at 500/600/700/800 mhz. Unless Nvidia plans on using 500 mhz rated chips and running them at their max speed, both the Ultra and the GT will likely get 600 mhz memory.

 

[vshah]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
What sort of memory chips will the GT be using?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.aspx?family_cd=GME1001

Looking at this Samsung only makes memory chips at 500/600/700/800 mhz. Unless Nvidia plans on using 500 mhz rated chips and running them at their max speed, both the Ultra and the GT will likely get 600 mhz memory.

they may put the 600mhz chips on the gt but clock them at 550
-Vivan

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

What about the designer of Far Cry? He says Sm3.0 does nothing that Sm2.0 cant do. Is he an Ati fanboy too, I guess the 'Way its meant to be played' Nvidia logo as the game loads is a giveaway he's an ATi fanboy.

I doubt he said that... I think those are your words. The designer of Far Cry would know that the Vertex Shader in Sm 3.0 is capable of displacement mapping... unlike the Vertex Shader in SM 2.0.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: rbV5

You're preachin' to the choir now Let's not forget we haven't even begun to see the capabilities of the dedicated video processor so that's an area where nv40 could greatly "enhance performance", just not for 3D.

Just "when" are we going to see PVP in action? The cards are going to be on the shelves soon.

Probably sooner than we saw a PS2 game worth playing show up after the feature was present on ATi cards

 

[ChkSix]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Delorian
But at this time, with none of those incorporated in to current games, why pay all the $$$ for a 6800, when by the time games do use those features the price will have dropped dramatically?

People bought 9700 and 9800s when the first few real games to use PS2 were a year away or more. People like to have cutting edge stuff, even when it's not overly useful.

Also notice the tables have turned... now it's ATI owners who are saying the new technology doesn't matter because there are no games that use it.

This has got to be the best statement yet, because the truth in it is very very deep. How can it matter when they had the technology and now that they don't, claim it doesn't matter? Very odd and very hypocritical indeed.

As for fast, VR-Zone has already gotten the 6800U to hit almost 14000 in 3dmark, making it the third fastest card on futuremark's hall of fame. All with air cooling by the way. Imagine this sucker on phase change or dry ice? What a beast it will be.

If longevity came into the question, than I'd be damned to buy a 500 dollar card now and then have to do the same thing in 12 months or less just to get the performance benefits when they arrive (PS/VS 3.0). And then one must account 1: if there will be significant benefits, and 2: if ATi can implement them correctly. I think if they could have done number two, they would have done it by now and not prolonge it for R500. They had PS 2.0 support when nothing was using it, why is the case different now? (hint: it isn't)

Also, 6800U's might be able to do PCI X with Nvidia's High Speed Interconnect Chip. So there is another benefit in the longevity. However it may or may not work as good as they claim or as good as a native PCI X card.

And before anyone takes me as a Nvidia man only, I'm not. I call it how I see it. The X800XT is fast, but that's about all it is. It doesn't do anything else for me, or else I would be seriously considering buying one. I'm not loyal to anyone in particular, currently own both 9800pro and 5950, and would also continue in the fashion down the road.