nVidia blocks Hardware Unboxed due to rasterization focus. Update: nVidia retracts.

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BFG10K

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LTT coverage


My thoughts

I think this is wrong and to be completely fair, I called out this behavior when AMD played similar shenanigans with TPU and Tech Report.

As for the "gamers" comment above, as of right now I don't give a crap about ray tracing, and even less of a crap about DLSS. I own a 2060 Super and never use any of those features by choice, for various reasons. Perhaps in 3-5 years with 2-3 new generations of cards, my opinion might change.

Rasterization is by far the most important feature for me, and I'm not a minority by any stretch of the imagination:

Survey.jpg

Update: nVidia now retracted


I'm not surprised they retracted but I expected it to take longer along with a "it was an internal draft that was never supposed to be released", or similar.
 
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MetalH2600

Member
Dec 12, 2020
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So you don't find anything to object to in these observations? Especially that RT isn't worth it in ANY game, or that 1080p is outdated because he's been using 1440p for a decade?
You are right, but he did admit to his biases right towards the end of the video.
He is not trying to paint a picture, more so present with honesty, he is only human like anyone else and not all humans can switch their mind into fully non biased and objective mind sets, to do so misses a lot and lies to ourselves as we are subjective creatures.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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RT and DLSS is subjective, but saying ...
No buts, here's what you just wrote minutes ago:
They'd be better off without including personal opinions on how a game's performance or visuals ought to be from the end-user's standpoint.
You have made a clear argument against reviewers discussing qualitative RT and DLSS data. Stick with your story or admit HUB is allowed to have opinions on gaming experience.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,150
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I can trash NV's rep for half of what their head of PR is getting paid. Hire me NV.

If NV went with a simple "Due to supply shortages NV will no longer sample review units with the following publications to ensure greater availability for our loyal fans and customers: Hardware Unboxed" it would be clear as day what they were doing while still maintaining plausible deniability and even putting a tongue in cheek spin on things.

Not that it would be OK, but at least PR is doing actual PR.

Honestly, this latest gen of cards from AMD or NV we're never really... In the cards... For me as even the 3060Ti is on the outside range of what I'm willing to pay for just about anything. As such, I can claim I'm boycotting NV's products for this, despite having no intention of buying new to begin with.

Picking up a used 2080 Ti or 2080S on steep discount after prices settle next year will be my likeliest play so I stiget the performance I want, at a price I'm comfortable with, without having my Money go to NV.
 
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tamz_msc

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Jan 5, 2017
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You have made a clear argument against reviewers discussing qualitative RT and DLSS data. Stick with your story or admit HUB is allowed to have opinions on gaming experience.
Nowhere have I stated that reviewers shouldn't discuss RT and DLSS qualitatively. However HUB's Steve dismisses RT and DLSS from their GPU reviews and that is a fact. You covering for them by linking a video of Tim discussing RT and DLSS in Cyberpunk doesn't change the reality.

And no, I don't want hot takes like 1080p is outdated or Watch Dogs ought to be played at 90FPS in a GPU review, especially a GPU review covering a $400 card.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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So you don't find anything to object to in these observations? Especially that RT isn't worth it in ANY game, or that 1080p is outdated because he's been using 1440p for a decade?

I think that right now and likely for the foreseeable future RT is massively overblown and not worth the performance hit so it doesn't bother me one bit. Other people think it's amazing and that they can't do without it. I don't agree with their opinion, but how can anyone be wrong about their own opinion?

There's nothing objective to object to and any objections you might have are due to your own subjective feelings and opinions. Expecting everyone to share your opinions and treating any that differ from your own as somehow objectionable is rather childish.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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I think that right now and likely for the foreseeable future RT is massively overblown and not worth the performance hit so it doesn't bother me one bit. Other people think it's amazing and that they can't do without it. I don't agree with their opinion, but how can anyone be wrong about their own opinion?

There's nothing objective to object to and any objections you might have are due to your own subjective feelings and opinions. Expecting everyone to share your opinions and treating any that differ from your own as somehow objectionable is rather childish.
OK so you find RT massively overblown. Fine. But why then state things like 1080p is outdated just because he personally doesn't use that resolution?
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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RT and DLSS is subjective, but saying things that 1080p is outdated or that one must have 90FPS in a certain game else its sub-optimal is completely unwarranted.

How is it unwarranted? It's an opinion, and I 100% agree with him. People who think 1080p 60fps is sufficient can find a different reviewer with a different perspective.
 
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tamz_msc

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How is it unwarranted? It's an opinion, and I 100% agree with him. People who think 1080p 60fps is sufficient can find a different reviewer with a different perspective.
It's a minority opinion in case of an open-world game with RT reflections in this case where the card under discussion costs $400.

And saying things like 1080p 60fps is insufficient reeks of PCMR elitism.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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It's a minority opinion in case of an open-world game with RT reflections in this case where the card under discussion costs $400.

Ok? Minority opinions are not allowed?

And saying things like 1080p 60fps is insufficient reeks of PCMR elitism.

It's not 2015 anymore

4k tvs are dirt cheap, the new consoles are doing 1440p 120fps / 4k 60

1080p / 60 is outdated
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Ok? Minority opinions are not allowed?
Wanting 1440p/120fps in a game with RT on is a minority opinion.
It's not 2015 anymore

4k tvs are dirt cheap, the new consoles are doing 1440p 120fps / 4k 60

1080p / 60 is outdated
The entire ongoing discussion is about opinions interfering with objectivity in reviews. And here you are doing exactly the same.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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Wanting 1440p/120fps in a game with RT on is a minority opinion.

Again, so what? Me and several hundred thousand other people seem to be ok with HU's fringe opinions

The entire ongoing discussion is about opinions interfering with objectivity in reviews. And here you are doing exactly the same.

Transparency and consistency are more important to me than objectivity. There is inherent subjectivity regardless. The games the reviewer chooses to use, the settings in those games, the resolutions they test at, the other components in the test system, etc. If he's reviewing hw with the bias that 1080p/60 is not sufficient then I'm much more interested in his thoughts than a reviewer who says "well according to steam hardware survey, most people use integrated graphics and a 1080p monitor so that's all you really need"

That's just my opinion, feel free to disagree!
 
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coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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Nowhere have I stated that reviewers shouldn't discuss RT and DLSS qualitatively.
You did exactly that, I'll quote your reply for the third time:
They'd be better off without including personal opinions on how a game's performance or visuals ought to be from the end-user's standpoint.
and for the third time: you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You don't want them to say 1080p is outdated or that 90FPS leads to sensibly better in-game latency, but you do want them to talk about how ray-tracing is the new must have. The fact that you're not capable to process the irony here is telling of your intentions.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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You did exactly that, I'll quote your reply for the third time:

and for the third time: you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You don't want them to say 1080p is outdated or that 90FPS leads to sensibly better in-game latency, but you do want them to talk about how ray-tracing is the new must have. The fact that you're not capable to process the irony here is telling of your intentions.
You're smarter than this. I'm disappointed. Discussing qualitatively the effects of RT and DLSS is not the same as stating subjective opinions on resolutions and frame rates.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Again, so what? Me and several hundred thousand other people seem to be ok with HU's fringe opinions
Funny you should say that. They did a poll asking what frame rates are acceptable in an open-world game - the context was CP2077 - and this was the result:

Screenshot_2020-12-13 Hardware Unboxed - YouTube.png
 

gdansk

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Feb 8, 2011
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If Nvidia had simply stopped sending them cards because they had better returns else where, that's fine. But that's not what Nvidia wanted. To me it's clear they sent an email with the intent to change HWUB's behavior. That HWUB should, like every other reviewer, declare that you should consider raytracing an important feature. Even on cards where it is essentially gimped and will likely never be useful.

And personally, I can see why they de-emphasize raytracing. I've had raytracing cards since they debuted and have played only one game where the experience was an improvement: Quake 2 from 1997. All the other games I went back to traditional lighting methods because even on an RTX 3080 it drops to unplayable framerates, looks worse, or stutters.

Personally, raytracing does not yet figure into my GPU purchasing decisions. This year it was availability. Maybe next year.
 
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AnandThenMan

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Did I just step into an alternate reality? What is going on? Nvidia has been playing dirty pool for as long as I can remember but somehow now people are just noticing? And make no mistake this back stabbing win at all cost gaslighting predatory corporate culture comes straight from the top.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Did I just step into an alternate reality? What is going on? Nvidia has been playing dirty pool for as long as I can remember but somehow now people are just noticing? And make no mistake this back stabbing win at all cost gaslighting predatory corporate culture comes straight from the top.
You will find that collectively we have a poor memory, something akin to goldfish. Some forgive, most forget. Secondly, it seems to me a novelty to see a reviewer publishing Nvidia emails more or less demanding they toe the line.
 

MetalH2600

Member
Dec 12, 2020
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Did I just step into an alternate reality? What is going on? Nvidia has been playing dirty pool for as long as I can remember but somehow now people are just noticing? And make no mistake this back stabbing win at all cost gaslighting predatory corporate culture comes straight from the top.
The downvotes of my comments from a person who opened their account here in 2020 and has only interest in AMD products speaks to me that people like to just be extremists in their views, but there are people expressing how wrong it is too, a mix that is bad and rather it don't matter... the discussion of it really leads no where, other than ego baiting, ego upholding, skewing it to the common power held at the time and that power right now is that Nvidia are the devil and AMD are saints, this is how narrow minded people think and work. Power always changes hands...

When a lashing of truth is factored in and we bring it in with common sense, you get posts like mine.

But truthfully a lot of people are not for common sense or truth as it's far more personal to them.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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If a reviewer thinks a feature not important, fine, but why would a manufacturer who thinks that that feature is the main selling point of the product send it to them for free? Lexus is not going to send their luxury cars to a reviewer that makes it clear that it only cares about how fast it is around Nurburgring and repeatedly pans ride comfort as unimportant. If your editorial policy is to deemphasize features that a manufacturer is emphasizing, you are just not the target audience.

Er...Lexus literally did exactly that.
 
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