nVidia blocks Hardware Unboxed due to rasterization focus. Update: nVidia retracts.

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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LTT coverage


My thoughts

I think this is wrong and to be completely fair, I called out this behavior when AMD played similar shenanigans with TPU and Tech Report.

As for the "gamers" comment above, as of right now I don't give a crap about ray tracing, and even less of a crap about DLSS. I own a 2060 Super and never use any of those features by choice, for various reasons. Perhaps in 3-5 years with 2-3 new generations of cards, my opinion might change.

Rasterization is by far the most important feature for me, and I'm not a minority by any stretch of the imagination:

Survey.jpg

Update: nVidia now retracted


I'm not surprised they retracted but I expected it to take longer along with a "it was an internal draft that was never supposed to be released", or similar.
 
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Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
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That's far more than just two or three generations out and that's only when I think we'll start seeing acceptable performance in the mid-range GPUs.
What is acceptable performance - I bet you'll be able to use RT + DLSS on a 3050 in cyberpunk - sure not at max settings but it'll be a graphical step up on whatever it could do without RT.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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What is acceptable performance - I bet you'll be able to use RT + DLSS on a 3050 in cyberpunk - sure not at max settings but it'll be a graphical step up on whatever it could do without RT.

I doubt a 3050 will handle RT very well at all given what we've seen from performance at the high-end cards. Even those struggle with running RT and from video reviews it's still easy to spot where the DLSS isn't doing a good enough job or results in a blurrier image. At a certain point the render resolution is so low that it's just not possible to reconstruct a high resolution image without a lot of inaccuracies cropping up in the image. Several reviews that have looked at RT + DLSS in Cyberpunk have said that going below the 1440p render resolution is where it starts to drop off.

But why bother turning RT on when you can just run DLSS fine without it? For all of the people who swear they can't tell a difference or that it actually makes a more realistic image than native rendering, there's no longer any point in getting a high-end card since a mid-range one will be perfectly capable of upsampling from lower resolutions. You'll essentially get the same performance as the high-end card would doing a native render, but if you can't tell the difference why spend an extra $400+ for it?
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
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I doubt a 3050 will handle RT very well at all given what we've seen from performance at the high-end cards. Even those struggle with running RT and from video reviews it's still easy to spot where the DLSS isn't doing a good enough job or results in a blurrier image. At a certain point the render resolution is so low that it's just not possible to reconstruct a high resolution image without a lot of inaccuracies cropping up in the image. Several reviews that have looked at RT + DLSS in Cyberpunk have said that going below the 1440p render resolution is where it starts to drop off.

But why bother turning RT on when you can just run DLSS fine without it? For all of the people who swear they can't tell a difference or that it actually makes a more realistic image than native rendering, there's no longer any point in getting a high-end card since a mid-range one will be perfectly capable of upsampling from lower resolutions. You'll essentially get the same performance as the high-end card would doing a native render, but if you can't tell the difference why spend an extra $400+ for it?
All the reviews run with ultra + full RT, or ultra + no RT and quality DLSS. There are other settings! I'm guessing you would use something more like high + medium RT + balanced DLSS at 1080p and it'll be fine on a lower end RT card (3050 which I guess will be similar to say a 2060 super) while still looking better then any mix of settings without RT at the same res.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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I’ll confirm everything you said. Rollo was trolling the entire forums for years before being outed banned and then reinstated.

Keysplayr was also very pro-NV, who then admitted to being part of the NV focus group then became a Mod. I too never understood that decision.

(Actually thinking back I’m getting strong LOTR vibes. I was there 3000 (well 15) years ago when the strength of men (mods) failed. Throw it into the fire! - Ban the guerilla marketers! No!)


AMD ostensibly pulled something similar to a lesser degree as I remember some former posters like @apoppin getting disgusted with the whole thing and leaving to start their own sites. (Which you helped contribute content to if I remember correctly)

For those who want to read up here’s one of the major threads

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...-with-aeg-exposed-updated-poll-added.1804008/
Thanks for linking to that classic drama. It was worth skimming through for the reference to Sharky Extreme alone. :cool:

I tried to tell them that most corps treat biz as warfare. Some considered The Art of War an instructional. That some members seemed genuinely upset that there were other members with hidden agendas, was high comedy to me. As if the plant in the crowd, the snake oil salesmen used, was an alien concept to them. The ones talking about how they were influencing people to buy stuff was even more comical. Brian/Rollo was hated by anyone not already on Nvidia's stringer. None of them were going to listen to him. Anyone listening had already drank the green sour apple kool-aid.

Here we are 15 years later, and Nvidia has never stopped waging war. For people like myself, it was expected that they benefitted greatly from doing so. If any of you are wondering why they can keep getting away with it, the answers are simple.

  1. The public has a short memory.
  2. There is always a fresh crop of new PC gamers to sell to.
  3. Many that detest their tactics, end up buying their products. The seemingly reasonable mental state of "I do not have loyalty to any company. I buy whatever the best product for my money is, when I am looking to buy." Well, it turns out, that product is often the "bad guy's". So if your principles are not such that you are willing to permanently boycott a company, you are part of what you perceive as a problem. Because they will just keep doing whatever they want, since they get to laugh all the way to the bank with your money.
It may be hard to hear, but either you take a stand, and boycott companies that offend you, or you accept that you are financially supporting said offensive behavior. Myself? I am not offended, in fact, I would be shocked if any of these companies did not follow the "All is fair in love and war" attitude toward how they run their biz.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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I remember those days. Rollo was irritating, and the worst thing is he had an outward appearance of being very knowledgeable that made people easily listen to him. It was definitely entertaining though. :D

I also assume all these companies do shady things and will buy whatever products I like. The PR departments have to justify their own paychecks somehow.
 
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blckgrffn

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May 1, 2003
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www.teamjuchems.com
Things would be better if so many companies hadn't outsourced the PR departments to Mordor.


Results tend to win contracts, not necessarily methods. Everyone wants to be able to sleep at night, but having been a marketing director you get to choose whether to lose sleep over missing targets or the methods your outsourced firms and employees are using to avoid those discussions. It's way easier sleeping when the company is hitting revenue targets and everything is "fine" at the office, let me tell you.

I mean, Sauron would have won that war more than once if not for persistence and luck ;) Those rings were a solid strategy!
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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All the reviews run with ultra + full RT, or ultra + no RT and quality DLSS.
Not true, HWUB tested minimal RT (reflections only) which has the smallest RT performance hit.

I'm guessing you would use something more like high + medium RT + balanced DLSS at 1080p and it'll be fine on a lower end RT card (3050 which I guess will be similar to say a 2060 super) while still looking better then any mix of settings without RT at the same res.
Except DLSS + 1080p isn't 1080p, it's 720p (or lower). DLSS is the "emperor's clothes" of technology because the upscale-to-resolution doesn't actually exist.

Given even a 3090 can't run RT acceptably in CP2077, a 3050 is DOA, especially since it'll almost certainly be 6GB.
 

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
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....................
  1. The public has a short memory.
  2. There is always a fresh crop of new PC gamers to sell to.
  3. Many that detest their tactics, end up buying their products. The seemingly reasonable mental state of "I do not have loyalty to any company. I buy whatever the best product for my money is, when I am looking to buy." Well, it turns out, that product is often the "bad guy's". So if your principles are not such that you are willing to permanently boycott a company, you are part of what you perceive as a problem. Because they will just keep doing whatever they want, since they get to laugh all the way to the bank with your money.
It may be hard to hear, but either you take a stand, and boycott companies that offend you, or you accept that you are financially supporting said offensive behavior. Myself? I am not offended, in fact, I would be shocked if any of these companies did not follow the "All is fair in love and war" attitude toward how they run their biz.

Why turn things around for trying to pin the blame on people who criticize stealth/viral marketing. You're ignoring the fact that the AT forum moderators banned people for implying that someone was an Nvidia viral marketer without absolute proof. Did AT ever bothered to reinstate Tuttle's (I think that was him) account? You're just giving Nvidia and every company who stooped to using scummy tactics a free pass if you are not offended and go on insisting that people who don't like it have to temporarily/permanently boycott Nvidia. Instead of thanking people for bringing such matters to light, now they are part of the problem for not 'sticking up for their principles', what BS.

It boggles the mind that people like Rollo/Keys got to become mods when they were low key trolling the forums. Constantly making subtle jabs and disingenuous assertions, subtly trying to turn opinion against Radeon/AMD, making the forums a more corrosive experience. At least I get to point that AT mods/admins have to own that mistake and doubly so when the forum got DDOS'd by Rollo.
 
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Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Given even a 3090 can't run RT acceptably in CP2077, a 3050 is DOA, especially since it'll almost certainly be 6GB.
3050 is based on 107 die, according to our latest knowledge, which means its not 6 GB.

Its 4 GB, or 8 GB should Nvidia decide to give more VRAM to customers. But most likely, knowing Nvidia, its 4 GB on 128 bit GDDR6 bus.
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Why turn things around for trying to pin the blame on people who criticize stealth/viral marketing. You're ignoring the fact that the AT forum moderators banned people for implying that someone was an Nvidia viral marketer without absolute proof. Did AT ever bothered to reinstate Tuttle's (I think that was him) account? You're just giving Nvidia and every company who stooped to using scummy tactics a free pass if you are not offended and go on insisting that people who don't like it have to temporarily/permanently boycott Nvidia. Instead of thanking people for bringing such matters to light, now they are part of the problem for not 'sticking up for their principles', what BS.

It boggles the mind that people like Rollo/Keys got to become mods when they were low key trolling the forums. Constantly making subtle jabs and disingenuous assertions, subtly trying to turn opinion against Radeon/AMD, making the forums a more corrosive experience. At least I get to point that AT mods/admins have to own that mistake and doubly so when the forum got DDOS'd by Rollo.
Your post contains straw man arguments; I was not blaming anyone, or giving any company a free pass. In fact everything I wrote was mischaracterized. And I will absolutely not comment on admin or mod actions, any criticism has to be taken to mod discussions, it is not permitted anywhere else. I cannot get involved as I have posted as a member, just giving you fair warning how the rules work. The same as any other member who has read them could.

I am not certain it can be made anymore clear, but I will try. It is the frog and the scorpion; can't blame someone for doing what you know they always do, even when they say they won't do it. Calling nV snake oil salesmen, guilty of the same tactics, including plants in the crowd, is definitely not a free pass, it's derisive. Seriously, I have to explain that? And yes it was comical to me that people old enough to use the forums, were naive enough to not be aware of a sales tactic that has been around for at least 100s of years, likely far longer. That is my perspective, and I have zero cares if it is popular or not. Because failure to use critical thinking, and do sufficient research, of not only tech but the purveyors, is intrinsic to being an informed consumer. I have no sympathy for those that fail to do so.

But that brings us to the other detestable parties involved: how some members reacted reminded my of Stalag 17: our protagonist points out that when they were all beating him as he lay in his bunk, the spy/plant was the one beating the hardest. My point, since it seems I have to be exhaustingly explicit to avoid having my words misinterpreted, is that a lot of the outrage was due to their having an emotional and/or financial investment involved, and were the ones "beating" nV the hardest. Never will I be handing out firm handshakes for being the worst part of an angry mob.

And why would I thank anyone? What? I am supposed to say thanks for telling me what I already know? Not gonna happen. To me, the whole thing was theater. Furthermore, nothing has changed. Shills are still shilling, and fanatics are still behaving fanatically. And Nvidia is still doing anything they want, and laughing all the way to the bank. In other news water wet. Perhaps a cold glass will help dissolve some of the saltiness.

Forums and comment sections on sites like Youtube are filled with the same tired shilling, both paid and pro bono. So what victory did that whole fiasco win? Whatever it was it was hollow. As if anything worthwhile came out of it. Here we are, discussing yet another Nvidia being the big bad. And the most amusing part for me is that they will make even more money. Because everything you guys do, just makes them a household name were they previously may not have been. The ONLY thing that changes corporate behavior beyond a South Park BP I'm sorry, is VOTING WITH YOUR WALLET. You stop buying anything they make money from, period, full stop. What is bs is thinking anything else works. There are outliers, but historically that is just the way it is, like it or lump, I care not.


Lastly, I told you it may be hard to hear. ;)
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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I have not bought any thing Nvidia since 2008. They are too scummy for my liking. My wallet is safe from them.
It is the only language they understand. If everyone bellyaching about how horrible they are, refused to buy their products, as you do, they might even revisit how they do things. Maybe, just maybe it could happen. Yeah, and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.

Hope you are having a great holiday season.:beercheers:
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Its 4 GB, or 8 GB should Nvidia decide to give more VRAM to customers. But most likely, knowing Nvidia, its 4 GB on 128 bit GDDR6 bus.
Imagine a 3070 owner who dropped $half a thousand on an 8GB card now seeing a budget 3050 have the same VRAM. o_O

We know the 3060 will have a 12GB SKU, so this would be an even bigger slap in the face if it happens.

I've had multiple opportunites to get a 3060TI/3070 but there's no way I'm getting obsolete DOA VRAM capacity, especially at inflated pricing.
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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durr hurr
Being caustic and acerbic is your M.O. and that's fine. If you have read my post over the years, you know I don't do flame wars, or engage when being trolled. I leave the thoughts and opinions I want to share with the readers, because doing any of the above is an effort in futility. You are not going to alter my views with your sarcastic, hyperbolic, nonsense. And I know full well from your posting history, there is no way anyone will ever convince you you're wrong about anything.
 

MetalH2600

Member
Dec 12, 2020
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Ok? Minority opinions are not allowed?



It's not 2015 anymore

4k tvs are dirt cheap, the new consoles are doing 1440p 120fps / 4k 60

1080p / 60 is outdated
Outdated?

Says whom? the 0.0001% who will even game at 4K / 120hz? Or the 0.00000000000000001% on 1440P 120hz? keeping in mind.. console.. and market aimed at...


LOL!
 

MetalH2600

Member
Dec 12, 2020
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Nvidia had to lower clocks on the 3080 after launch because they were unstable.
There were also tons of issues with the 2080ti and "space invaders":

Also supposedly killing GPUs:

I know that the 5700xt really had issues in the beginning, and it took them a few months to sort it out. However, I've been using a 5700xt for more than a year, and have only had minor problems with two specific games, but definitely nothing major.

It's nice that Nvidia cards have a fix, 5700 XT's still go on black / green screening to this day.
 

MetalH2600

Member
Dec 12, 2020
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That's why you have a choice in what to watch. Maybe, just maybe, there are some gamers who think like him and value a kindred mind before buying a card. Are you so narrow minded so as to not want any different viewpoint except your own? Isn't free choice to watch or buy, a desirable thing? Homogeneous thinking is our doom.
In answer to that person you answered what i thought...

This topic is fully useless since it creates no change.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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It is the exact same thing, you're asking them to tell you how nice RT visuals are while not telling you how nice 1440p or 90FPS is. You want to pick and chose which subjective benchmarks are allowed.
In isolation 1440p or 90FPS is nice. But the context in which he says those things is RT performance and $400 cards. Well, he's not being objective when he's literally dictating to viewers what he considers acceptable and what fails to meet his threshold of acceptability.

To make my argument more concrete, just listen to what he says in conclusion to the 3060 Ti review. He states that for customers buying a $400 card it makes no sense to pair it with a 1080p display. Well on what basis does he state that? High refresh gaming is a thing, and even in his own charts the 3060 Ti is just averaging slightly higher than 144 FPS on high(not even ultra) settings. He literally dismissed his own findings to push the narrative that 1080p is not acceptable when paired with a $400 card.
 

Heartbreaker

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Apr 3, 2006
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I don't think it's anything that's widespread, particularly today, and I didn't have an account here back when a lot of the Rollo stuff went down. Rollo was just the most infamous poster here that I recall, but there was a forum mod that stepped down here as well do to an association with some other similar company program, so it wasn't as though it was just one poster in the whole of the internet or even this website. Some of the other posters that have been around for a lot longer probably remember it all in more detail than I do and if you wanted you could probably go dig through the old posts about it here yourself.

But like I said, you're never going to find someone who's job position included a description to "impersonate regular users and spread FUD" or anything like that because companies won't directly hire anyone to do that. At best they work with a marketing firm that seemed to have done some unscrupulous things that don't represent company values and as a result the company is no longer doing business with them.

If that's the burden of proof you require, then what you ask is simply impossible to satisfy. Is the escort who accepts an expensive gift that was purchased with cash from a store where it can easily be returned engaging in prostitution or not? No money exchanged hands and there's plenty of plausible deniability where nothing can be proven, and no one will admit to any wrongdoing or illegal acts, but I think it's fairly obvious that everyone understands the relationship that exists in this example.

It has certainly happened here and at other forums, but I think you're just arguing over the definition of words. I can't speak to the motivation of the people involved. Perhaps they would have done what they did for free, but they seemed to be happy to receive compensation for it. Would everyone in those relationships have acted exactly as they did by providing free cards or making favorable posts without the actions of the other side?

I'm not just arguing over the definition of words. The claim was NVidia hired multiple people to make accounts HERE, and post FUD. That is a rather specific claim.

So far there is ZERO evidence of that.

I think it a LOT more likely that in the VAST majority of cases, it's just, as in the latest instance, an overzealous fan.

People these days see conspiracies everywhere, when there are more simple and likely explanations.