Nvidia / AMD......So what is up with this ?

MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
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Ok, In one of my rigs in my sig, I have a EVGA GTX 460 SC and in another rig in my sig, I have a HD 6870.

I know the HD 6870 was originally almost equal to the GTX 460, but since then it has gained some ground making it a little faster. Or a bit faster, whichever.

Anyway, My son has a Steam account, and so do I. We play Left 4 Dead alot, and while both PC's handle the games very easily, it just seems ALOT smoother on the GTX 460 than the HD 6870 does.

Rig 1

E7200 @ Stock
EVGA GTX 460 SC

Rig 2

FX-8120
XFX HD 6870

Running the games with the HD 6870, everything seems to be perfect and runs fine.
BUT.....when I run the "same area" in the game with a GTX 460, it just seems A LOT smoother than the AMD counterpart. Why is this ?

So, The AMD card seems perfect and smooth. But when I use the NV card, it just seems that it is A LOT smoother.

Both cards are using the latest drivers.

So, why is the NV equivalent to the HD 6870 "SO" much smoother feeling ? Almost like it has Vsync, and the AMD card doesn't.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Maybe if you ran fraps and watch the fps you will understand better than pure speculation? Card behavior varies, some scenes skyrockets to 200+ fps while others its steady at 60fps, the flip flops between such causes a non-smooth feeling. I always game with vsync on for this reason, as well as screen tearing.
 

MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
2,383
11
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I do use FRAPS. The fps rarely varies at all, and they never even drop hardly at all. Maybe a few fps here and there, but the smoothest I am seeing, well...It just seems the GTX 460 has a lot more "fluid" motion. If that makes any sense.

Both PC's, I use the exact same resolution and graphic settings as well. It just "feels" better.

Oh, and I do run Vsync on both PC's.

EDIT: I do see what you are saying, but the smoothness I speak of, is happening for a different reason, than just varying fps. Especially when both PC's are locked at 60.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Track it, min, avg, max, same scene run through. You'll see the picture clearer.

Edit: I recall [H] did a fps tracking of faildozer (at its launch) in gaming, while it was giving reasonable averages, it was flip flopping all over the place and made games feel unsmooth.
 
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raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
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with different CPUs in the 2 rigs you don't know if the CPU is affecting the performance and making the game smoother on the nvidia gtx 460. some games require high single thread performance and don't utilize more than 2 threads. AMD FX CPUs struggle in single thread performance and will run slower in those cases.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Swap GPUs between rigs so you can see if the CPU has anything to do with it.
But I have to say, even a Bulldozer is faster than a E7200. So the smoothness gap might open even wider.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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You using identical monitors?

While an extreme case, if I compare my IPS display to my CRT running mirrored displays the CRT utterly destroys the IPS in terms of smoothness, responsiveness, etc. Unfortunately for us currently, the higher the quality of the display, the worse this tends to be(although most people don't notice it). Input latency and response time on the displays tend to make *much* bigger differences then a few fps difference in video cards(although to speak of such things is nigh blasphemous around here ;) ).
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
You using identical monitors?

While an extreme case, if I compare my IPS display to my CRT running mirrored displays the CRT utterly destroys the IPS in terms of smoothness, responsiveness, etc. Unfortunately for us currently, the higher the quality of the display, the worse this tends to be(although most people don't notice it). Input latency and response time on the displays tend to make *much* bigger differences then a few fps difference in video cards(although to speak of such things is nigh blasphemous around here ;) ).

This is an excellent opportunity for the OP to try swapping not only the cards between rigs, but also the monitors. Obviously the rig housing the 6870 has some flawed or inferior hardware of some kind.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
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Ok, In one of my rigs in my sig, I have a EVGA GTX 460 SC and in another rig in my sig, I have a HD 6870.

I know the HD 6870 was originally almost equal to the GTX 460, but since then it has gained some ground making it a little faster. Or a bit faster, whichever.

Anyway, My son has a Steam account, and so do I. We play Left 4 Dead alot, and while both PC's handle the games very easily, it just seems ALOT smoother on the GTX 460 than the HD 6870 does.

Rig 1

E7200 @ Stock
EVGA GTX 460 SC

Rig 2

FX-8120
XFX HD 6870

Running the games with the HD 6870, everything seems to be perfect and runs fine.
BUT.....when I run the "same area" in the game with a GTX 460, it just seems A LOT smoother than the AMD counterpart. Why is this ?

So, The AMD card seems perfect and smooth. But when I use the NV card, it just seems that it is A LOT smoother.

Both cards are using the latest drivers.

So, why is the NV equivalent to the HD 6870 "SO" much smoother feeling ? Almost like it has Vsync, and the AMD card doesn't.

Left 4 dead is mostly a single threaded game, so the Intel cpu in the first rig might out perform the AMD cpu in the second rig.
 

nforce4max

Member
Oct 5, 2012
88
0
0
Left 4 dead is mostly a single threaded game, so the Intel cpu in the first rig might out perform the AMD cpu in the second rig.

I agree and the FPU in that cpu is pretty good once one factors in the performance per clock but at stock eww.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
I agree and the FPU in that cpu is pretty good once one factors in the performance per clock but at stock eww.

600Mhz difference between the Intel and AMD cpu here. Intel, even Core 2, has been faster than AMD by larger gaps than that, depending on the application and games are one of Intel's strongest areas.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
You using identical monitors?

While an extreme case, if I compare my IPS display to my CRT running mirrored displays the CRT utterly destroys the IPS in terms of smoothness, responsiveness, etc. Unfortunately for us currently, the higher the quality of the display, the worse this tends to be(although most people don't notice it). Input latency and response time on the displays tend to make *much* bigger differences then a few fps difference in video cards(although to speak of such things is nigh blasphemous around here ;) ).


You beat me to it, I was going to suggest swapping monitors if they are not the same and see if that might change things.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
91
I noticed this happened to me when I switched from my old CRT to an LCD.

It just felt like the picture was smoother on my old CRT and I was too young to understand anything about latency and response time.
 

MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
2,383
11
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Yes, I am using the same monitor. It runs at 1080p. Graphics settings are all the same as well.

And yep, I just finished a little while ago after reading these replies about trying the GTX 460 in the FX rig, and it still seems more smooth. The AMD card in the E7200 rig, now it dont feel as smooth as it did with the GTX 460.

It isnt like screen tearing, I guess it is possible to say that it seems like "micro stutter" on the AMD card. But it happens on the entire image being rendered.

Seems like it is being jerky or something, but the jerkiness seems so fast, that it is only noticeable when compared to the GTX 460. Otherwise, while playing the game, I dont even notice it. At least till I use the 460.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Yes, I am using the same monitor. It runs at 1080p. Graphics settings are all the same as well.

And yep, I just finished a little while ago after reading these replies about trying the GTX 460 in the FX rig, and it still seems more smooth. The AMD card in the E7200 rig, now it dont feel as smooth as it did with the GTX 460.

It isnt like screen tearing, I guess it is possible to say that it seems like "micro stutter" on the AMD card. But it happens on the entire image being rendered.

Seems like it is being jerky or something, but the jerkiness seems so fast, that it is only noticeable when compared to the GTX 460. Otherwise, while playing the game, I dont even notice it. At least till I use the 460.

Well, that answers SilverForce's query. What's next?
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
Same deal here, went to a 460 from a 4890 and saw massive gains in image quality/smoothness. Filters most likely. Makes me weary of getting a 7970 but ive not seen it in action.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Uses fraps to capture frame times. Your problem is within the second so no amount of averaging for frames per second is going to show up the actual problem. What you are looking for is variation in either patterns between consecutive frames (micostutter) or outliers that appear relatively frequently.

Both of these effects destroy the appearance of motion and are detectable.

However there is a problem with the frame times approach, it only measures from the time the frame is handed to the GPU and sent out to the monitor, which means throttling all the way back to the CPU and the age of the frame aren't tracked. NVidia has hardware that helps with smoothness in these regards but no one has a way of measuring how effectively it is. Neitherless do the frame times test and the difference should show up there.
 

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
3,928
186
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....

And yep, I just finished a little while ago after reading these replies about trying the GTX 460 in the FX rig, and it still seems more smooth. The AMD card in the E7200 rig, now it dont feel as smooth as it did with the GTX 460.

It isnt like screen tearing, I guess it is possible to say that it seems like "micro stutter" on the AMD card. But it happens on the entire image being rendered.
.....
Very strange. I wouldn't think that the recent 6 series has this problem.
I thought what you could be seeing was the higher latencies with FX/AMD cpus in general (and not a problem with the graphics cards) as laid out in this article.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Yes, I am using the same monitor. It runs at 1080p. Graphics settings are all the same as well.

And yep, I just finished a little while ago after reading these replies about trying the GTX 460 in the FX rig, and it still seems more smooth. The AMD card in the E7200 rig, now it dont feel as smooth as it did with the GTX 460.

It isnt like screen tearing, I guess it is possible to say that it seems like "micro stutter" on the AMD card. But it happens on the entire image being rendered.

Seems like it is being jerky or something, but the jerkiness seems so fast, that it is only noticeable when compared to the GTX 460. Otherwise, while playing the game, I dont even notice it. At least till I use the 460.

While I'm not dismissing your claims, you are the only person reporting this. We have other members running both brands, and lots of reviewers comparing both brands all of the time with no other reports of this phenomenon. We would need better controlled testing to determine if there's any validity to your observations.

Even if we were to accept your results as fact, it only would apply to your setups. It wouldn't mean that all nVidia cards are perceptively smoother than all AMD cards in all systems with all drivers. So, to claim that it's an AMD to nVidia situation, as the title suggests, is painting your observations with a very broad brush.
 

MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
2,383
11
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To be totally honest, I have no clue what is causing it. But I seriously do not think it is the FX cpu doing it. Because with the 460 in the AMD rig, it is perfectly fine. With the 6870 in the rig, then I can see the problem again. When I say see, I dont mean visually see it, I simply mean, I can tell it is a little different.

And while I do understand what you all are saying, I think ? I also know there is nothing wrong with my setups. I am sure I took all precautions as to what is needed to swap cards out in the same system. So I highly doubt it is a driver conflict.

Is it possible the "GPU" itself could be on it's last legs ? It is a XFX reference model. And it has NEVER been overclocked. Not even by 1 Mhz. And the cpu runs at 4.2 Ghz perfectly stable now since June 17th I think is the date. Memory isnt overclocked either.

Both cards, I used 4xaa and 16xaf. Both with vsync.

But like I said, If I didnt even own the GTX 460, when I would game on the HD 6870, all seemed absolutely perfect. No hitching, micro stuttering anything of that nature. And then in goes the 460, and I can instantly tell...it runs more "fluid" than the AMD card.

I dont know really. I mean, it is not even a big deal. I was just wondering if anyone knew what the cause would be.

But seriously though, next month I plan on upgrading the GPU to a 7870 / 7950. BUT.....If the problem is the AMD card, Then ill go with a GTX 660 Ti / GTX 670.

Also, if it is in fact the FX cpu causing it, well....I guess ill be picking up a 3570k instead of a Vishera cpu.

Edit: By the way, I am a AMD fan. Always have been. But, that will not stop me from converting to Nvidia and Intel if the problem is with one of the two AMD parts I have.

Edit 2: Is there any specific test anyone knows of that I could test out ? Because I would like to find out what is causing it before the GPU upgrade.
 
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MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
2,383
11
76
Neitherless do the frame times test and the difference should show up there.


How exactly would I do this ? I do have a paid license for FRAPS.

Edit: Nevermind, was an easy find in FRAPS. Not sure why, But I don't think I have ever noticed that option in there before.
 

Leyawiin

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2008
3,204
52
91
I bought a Sapphire HD 7850 2GB OC last summer to replace a GTX 460 1GB @ 865 Mhz. At the time I was playing Skyrim pretty much exclusively. I noticed immediately that the Sapphire on the same settings (Ultra preset) stuttered when panning the camera - especially when first entering a new zone. Same PC and monitor (X4 980 @ 4.0 Ghz). I had thoroughly cleaned out the old drivers using Driver Cleaner - didn't help. Reinstalled the AMD drivers twice to make sure. Tried a few other RPGs I was playing at the time and none seemed as smooth as with the old GTX 460 1GB. Could have been a bad card, but I didn't bother to try another. Could have just been specific to my particular hardware mix as well. I'm just saying such a thing can happen. Given the rave reviews the HD 7850 gets from users (especially in this forum) I'd tend to think it was just a problem specific to my PC and the games I play.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Same deal here, went to a 460 from a 4890 and saw massive gains in image quality/smoothness. Filters most likely. Makes me weary of getting a 7970 but ive not seen it in action.

Thats a huge leap in performance, would explain your IQ/smoothness. heh

Adaptive vsync is the only other explaination i can think of. It dynamically adjust the scene IQ to minimize frame rate drops during intensive parts and maintains more smoothness.