Nvidia 9800GT-based rig: Noob build question

[mset]

Hi guys

Hope this is okay in this forum.

Believe this or not, I haven't played a video game since about 1984 (Q-Bert, anyone remember it?). My friend is looking to build a rig for his kids. He doesn't want to spend a huge whack of cash on it but he has heard that the Nvidia 9800gt is a vid card that will give him a decent shot at having a rig his kids can use for the next 24-36 months on all the popular games (they play Halo and used to play WoW but not so much anymore. Also other MMORPGs).

My questions are

1) Is this card a decent one? They don't need the absolute bleeding edge of performace but he wants it to be fun for them

2) More importantly for me, since I will be recommending other components, is there an issue with buying a mobo that has enough 'capacity' to handle this card? I'm not an advanced tech guy, so don't laugh at this question - is there a consideration with 'northbridge throughput', i.e speed of northbridge? Do I need to make sure to recommend a mobo/CPU combination that can handle this card?

I also feel like with cards like this, it is crucial to have a power supply that can handle the requirement, correct?

Any comments are appreciated. Budget for the box only is $900.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I would go with ATI

 

[Denithor]

You're in luck, I'm bored tonight. Here's your build.

e7200 (2.53GHz, 3MB cache) $120
MSI P43 motherboard $75AR
Mushkin 2x2GB DDR2-800 $53AR
WD 640MB HDD $75
Sony NEC DVD burner $24
ASUS 4850 512MB $150AR (quiet aftermarket cooling)
Antec Sonata III w/ Earthwatts 500W $99

Total $596AR

This will be one seriously fast system with great gaming performance for <$600. You could trim about $35 by using the e5200 (2.5GHz, 2MB cache) instead of the e7200 listed above.

That leaves about $300 to cover Vista (64-bit), LCD (coupon code EMCBAAKAD), keyboard & mouse and speakers.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: Denithor
You're in luck, I'm bored tonight. Here's your build.

Denithor, that is amazing, thanks a lot. I'm linking my friend to this thread - he's in a different timezone so he's up now, we'll be going over the components piece by piece.

Thanks for putting that together, man. I appreciate it.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: BTRY B 529th FA BN
I would go with ATI

I had the (evidently wrong) impression that after AMD acquired ATI, Nvidia/Intel had sort of 'taken the lead' for the time being. Someone else told me this is wrong. If you have a favourite ATI card in the range of the 9800GT, I would at least check it out.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Denithor's suggestions are Solid, the 4850 is a good card within the resolutions for a medium size view.

If your friend is familiar to overclocking, that is a GREAT chip to overclock. Most users of that chip report @ 3.6Ghz without changing any voltages. That will add some extra fps in some games.

Anything else?

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: BTRY B 529th FA BN
Denithor's suggestions are Solid, the 4850 is a good card within the resolutions for a medium size view.

Anything else?

I really can't think of anything, that build outline is exactly what we needed. With regard to the resolutions you mentioned, I assume the card he has suggested will output in a manner that is compatible with the optimal resolutions on the monitor he suggested.

Like I said, I am not a tech guy, but I do know that I personally like the S-IPS screens for their clarity and colour reproduction. I know that I give away speed and that gamers need it. I believe my Dell 2005 FPW's are 8 ms and I notice that the screen Denithor suggested is 5 ms. I also know that there are 2 ms TN screens that aren't always that expensive. Clearly if one of those was optimal, Denithor would have included it in that rig. So 5 ms is obviously fine. This is good for me to know since I had this idea in my head that if I was going to spec out a gaming rig for these guys, I would have no choice but to get a 2 ms monitor.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, both of you.

 

[Denithor]

I'm on a 6ms Dell 2709W here and have no problems with input lag or ghosting or any artifacts in gaming or movies, period.

The only reason I linked that particular monitor is because it's big, beautiful, and cheap ($150AR for a 21.6" is an amazing deal). However, it doesn't have DVI or HDMI inputs so you might consider something like this one instead (22", $20 more, no rebates).

FYI, nVidia does currently have the performance crown for single GPU performance with the GTX 280 -- which costs ~$400 and is way more powerful than your friend needs. That being said, for the resolution of the monitors I'm recommending the 4850 will handle practically anything you can throw at it for the next 1-2 years at a very affordable price. If they outgrow the 4850 you can always replace just that part in a year or so with the midrange champ at that time (that's what I do -- replace my video card about once per year with whatever costs $150-200 when I decide to do it -- that way I don't spend too much but still stay fairly current with my system).

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: Denithor
The only reason I linked that particular monitor is because it's big, beautiful, and cheap ($150AR for a 21.6" is an amazing deal). However, it doesn't have DVI or HDMI inputs so you might consider something like ...

Well, at this rate, the budget is not going to be a problem since we are way under where we thought we would be, so we'll check that one out too.

Originally posted by: Denithor... for the resolution of the monitors I'm recommending the 4850 will handle practically anything you can throw at it for the next 1-2 years at a very affordable price. If they outgrow the 4850 you can always replace just that part in a year or so with the midrange champ at that time (that's what I do -- replace my video card about once per year with whatever costs $150-200 when I decide to do it -- that way I don't spend too much but still stay fairly current with my system).

That is exactly what we are looking for - future proof for 18-24 months and if we can swap out the card at that time and milk another 12-18 months out of it, then that's ideal.

 

[mset]

Guys, there's one more thing I need t know before I proceed. I am in Canada. Unfortunately, Newegg won't ship up here. I didn't mention this because it's a problem that we can deal with on our own. So let's say we have to go through a Canadian site for our parts.

I did a search for the HD4850 and got this

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/appl...850+GDDR3&srkey=hd4850

Now, it seems that several manufacturers use the HD4850 'engine' and build cards based on it - is this correct? I realize that these cards may also have other features which differentiate them, but can I basically look at any card that is labelled HD4850? I would stick with a name I know - I have never heard of Palit, for example, although you guys may know it well.

Denithor, would you have me stick with the exact Asus card you linked me to?

Thanks.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: mset
Guys, there's one more thing I need t know before I proceed. I am in Canada. Unfortunately, Newegg won't ship up here. I didn't mention this because it's a problem that we can deal with on our own. So let's say we have to go through a Canadian site for our parts.

I did a search for the HD4850 and got this

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/appl...850+GDDR3&srkey=hd4850

Now, it seems that several manufacturers use the HD4850 'engine' and build cards based on it - is this correct? I realize that these cards may also have other features which differentiate them, but can I basically look at any card that is labelled HD4850? I would stick with a name I know - I have never heard of Palit, for example, although you guys may know it well.

Denithor, would you have me stick with the exact Asus card you linked me to?

Thanks.

Every manufacturer uses the same cores from ATi. Some manufacturers like to overclock the cards for you, some have better warranties, they use different coolings fans, etc. I don't know too much about ATi manufacturers specifically, but someone her should chime in with some good names.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante
Every manufacturer uses the same cores from ATi. Some manufacturers like to overclock the cards for you, some have better warranties, they use different coolings fans, etc. I don't know too much about ATi manufacturers specifically, but someone her should chime in with some good names.

Thanks CV. I just found the exact card that Denithor linked me to here.

http://www.canadacomputers.com...018957&cid=999.243.272

Pretty sure it's identical and if it isn't it's probably close enough. We'll stick with the build as it was outlined to us, as much as we can.

Thanks for the info.

 

[mset]

Just a follow up and one last thank you. On the off chance that any Canadians find this thread, here is the build from Canada Computers.

Ram

Vid Card

Case + PS

CD-DVD Drive

WD HD

Mobo

CPU

 

[mset]

Interesting... I got a call from my buddy's son. I asked him what he would be playing.

He tells me that he will be playing 'Spore', and that he wants to play 'Crysis' on the lowest setting and be able to 'watch more than just a slide show'.

Sorry I didn't get this out to you guys sooner. Are we going to be able to accomodate him with this rig?

 

[Qbah]

The system will handle Crysis at DX9 High without breaking a sweat Same for Crysis: Warhead. It won't be buttery smooth (as no system can give you that in Crysis) but thanks to dropping the detail level to High (Gamer in Warhead) you should be fine 30-ish FPS average I'd say.

 

[mset]

I just called this kid and read your post to him and he was happy, to say the least. I assume his current computer is not exactly ready for this game.

Thank you

 

[Qbah]

Just to back my words, Crysis DX9 performance using various cards

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardwa...r-radeon-hd-4850-pcs/4
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com...formance-review-9.html (1600x1200 is a bit more pixels, similar performance though)


A 22" LCD is 1680x1050, so check this part.

You might need to OC the CPU a bit (like 3-3.2GHz) but that's really easy with an E7200. Though it should be fine at stock (as Crysis is a CPU intensive game).

 

[mset]

Hey Qbah

Nice, I'll link the kids to those pages.

Re: overclocking, it's a possibility but I am 3000 miles away and this rig has to be in use by the kids and sometimes Dad so basically I want to get them a rig that is okay-to-go out of the box. Like I said, if it even comes close to the performance you mentioned out of the box, we're going to be set. Maybe one of the kids will get into overclocking, I'm not sure. I'm sure that overclocking isn't that big a deal but I guess you sorta have to know what you're going.

 

[Denithor]

Sorry, this is my first chance to look at the boards today.

Just get whichever 4850 has an aftermarket cooler & is cheapest. The only company I would actively avoid is Sapphire, their RMA program blows chunks (they charge a fee to RMA a defective card--these guys suck & I won't recommend their cards to anyone).

Before you pull the trigger there, look around a little more. Newegg now has a Canadian site (newegg.ca) and you can also look at ncix.com and tigerdirect.ca for the lowest cost on parts. Also, don't lock into the exact parts I listed, if you can find a better deal on a P43 motherboard or RAM or something just go for it. Like I said, I was bored last night & those were the best deals I could find in about 15 minutes of searching at newegg, didn't look in Canada because I didn't know you were up there.

Anyway, that should give you a good guide to follow for the essential parts. And, like mentioned above, yes, Spore & even Crysis won't be too heavy for this system at 22" resolution. And in a year or so they can just replace the video card to improve performance for a while longer (by that time the GTX 280 will be a mainstream model probably priced in the $150-200 range and there will be a new performance champ filling the $400 price range).

Good luck and enjoy the build!

EDIT: And regarding overclocking, just read the "sticky" at the top of the CPU & Overclocking thread here. It's got explicit instructions on how to safely & stably squeeze the most power out of a processor. Plus, whoever does it can post questions on the forum there and many people will help with any issues that arise.

EDIT2: And glad to hear you're under budget, most people who don't follow computers imagine that a gaming system has to cost several thousand dollars and be a noisy POS to boot. LOL. I have well <$1000 in my system and cannot hear it under my desk.

 

[mset]

Denithor, I'm glad you checked in to see the results of your post last nigt. The kids and Dad are excited and we have decided to follow the outline of your build. For sure we will tweak if necessary, according mostly to what's available up here. If we have room in the budget we may bump up to the e8400, and I'll make sure I get a mobo that will work with it. I realized that it's a waste to get a mobo with an on-board GPU so I will keep that in mind as well.

The big thing we learned was that we should bump up to the 4850 and all the research we've done bears that out.

Another guy suggested that Visiontek cards have a lifetime warranty as well as Asus (a brand I have had very good results with), so I am looking at those. Will avoid Sapphire.

Did not know Newegg has a Canadian site, thanks!!

Last question for you? You mentioned Vista 64 bit in the outline. However, I see in your sig that you run XP sp3 and so do I. So you aren't in the 'Vista sucks and is worthless, avoid it at all costs' camp? Will Crysis and Spore run better on Vista for some reason? Again, I don't know much but I do know that software has to be optimized for 64 bit otherwise it doesn't make a difference whether you have 32 or 64 bit, right? Is 64 bit just a good idea by now because we'll soon see apps coming through written for it?

Thanks as always.

Nick

 

[BenSkywalker]

Looking at the price you would be dealing with for the 4850, two of these would pretty much smoke the 4850 for almost the same price. They would require a SLI mobo to make use of them, just wanted to point that out as the 4850 at close to double the price of a 9800GT is NOT a good deal(in the US the boards are almost the same cost which is why people reccomend the 4850).

 

[sonnygdude]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Looking at the price you would be dealing with for the 4850, two of these would pretty much smoke the 4850 for almost the same price. They would require a SLI mobo to make use of them, just wanted to point that out as the 4850 at close to double the price of a 9800GT is NOT a good deal(in the US the boards are almost the same cost which is why people reccomend the 4850).

the downside is that you have to buy a mobo with an Nvidia chipset, which aren't as stable or robust as the P43/P45 chipsets, and you run the risk of eventually encountering games that don't scale well. In general you're better off going with a fast single card rather than multi GPU solutons. Less power and heat, no scaling issues, and I would argue that 2 cards create twice the chance of failure

 

[BenSkywalker]

the downside is that you have to buy a mobo with an Nvidia chipset, which aren't as stable or robust as the P43/P45 chipsets

While I haven't experienced any issues with the nV chipset mobos, you can run Intel's x58 chipset shortly too.

and you run the risk of eventually encountering games that don't scale well. In general you're better off going with a fast single card rather than multi GPU solutons. Less power and heat, no scaling issues, and I would argue that 2 cards create twice the chance of failure

In the abstract I suppose you are correct, but finding actual examples of what you are talking about would be a bit more difficult to come by. SLI tends to scale far more regularly then CF, less power and heat is compared to a single version of the same card, not a different card(although SLId 9800GTs are likely to be a bit more demanding then a single 4850) and as far as failure- XFX boards come with a lifetime warranty.

The biggest difference in the setups would be the huge rift in performance. A single 4850 isn't even close to 9800GTs in SLI, but the price differential is quite minimal. If the OP was that bent on not going with a SLI setup, I would say in terms of value he would be much better off with a single 9800GT then a 4850. The 4850 has a rather small edge in performance and is ~70% more expensive then a single 9800GT, it really isn't close in terms of value at the moment.

 

[Denithor]

I have a copy of Vista Ultimate but at the moment am using XP SP3 instead -- not due to "vista sucks" or anything -- it doesn't -- just because I was planning to move my copy Vista onto an HTPC and just haven't gotten the parts together. Vista 64-bit gives the advantage of fully supporting 4GB of ram (or even up to 8GB if you like) plus your GPU memory where XP only registers 4GB total (on my rig, 4GB system RAM + 512MB 8800GTS I only have like 3.2GB usable by the OS). If you're buying an OS for a new build I always recommend Vista64 > XP32.

e8400 would definitely be a nice bump up in performance, especially for a rig aimed at gaming. If your budget allows go for it, you won't regret it.

4850 vs 2x9800GT -- hmm... BenSkywalker does have a point, but you're also going to have to buy an SLI motherboard, which will cost more than a P43 board and don't have the same reputation for stability & overclocking performance. And you're going to need a beefier powersupply. Add to that some people notice "micro-stutter" (just google that for explanation) and SLI doesn't look quite so good, especially for a moderate-budget build.

Now, I did look around some of the .ca websites and found that you can get the 4850 for ~$180AR. You could also consider a GTX 260 in the $280 range or a 4870 in the $300 range but I have a feeling those cards are going to be out of your price range. Note, however, that a stronger GPU is a better investment than a stronger CPU for a gaming rig. So if it comes down to extra money for e8400 versus extra money for 260/4870 I'd go with the better GPU.

 

[mset]

I think that at this point we are going to stick with a single GPU, for some of the reasons mentioned above.

Re: the upgrades from your original build... yes, this build is starting to creep like all builds do, I guess. Last night we were discussing sort of the opposite of what you mentioned. You have spent enough time here but can I just run this last thing by you?

What about this thinking - buy the 4850 but buy the upgraded CPU (e8400), not to get better performance now, but to prepare for 18 months from now when we upgrade the GPU to the new 'midrange champ' as you called it. At that point we will have a few more horsepower under the hood. Does that make sense if we would rather future proof a bit more than have that small percentage in performance improvement now? Would that extra 0.5 GHz in CPU performance help us out at that point?

We'll be buying this week, thanks for your help and to everyone who pitched in here.