Nutty Europeans

[Feldenak]

Text

Now, maybe I'm reading this incorrect (and it hasn't become law yet) but what right do the French have to legislate for Turkey?

 

[Strk]

They don't, but look up how many countries acknowledge the Armenian genocide. This is actually a pretty big step -- although I don't think it makes sense to criminalize the issue.

 

[CPA]

The sickest part of this legislation is not imposing France's will on Turkey, but it's the legislation of opinion. I can't stomach that, no matter what country does it.

But, what can you expect, this came from France's Socialist Party - aka liberal side of the French House.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Text

Now, maybe I'm reading this incorrect (and it hasn't become law yet) but what right do the French have to legislate for Turkey?

Well, they're not legislating for Turkey, since that law would only apply in France.

Personally I think these types of laws don't make any sense outside of the country of origin. ie, Holocaust denial should be a crime in Germany, but not in other countries.

 

[chcarnage]

This is not nutty at all, it's just a different approach to where freedom of speech and racism collide. And it has nothing to do with violating Turkish sovereignity, oh my god... It's about disowning the Armenian genocide on French soil!

Personally I'm a bit disappointed that the French politicians talk the talk but don't walk the walk here. The voting outcome and participation is laughable.

On a sidenote, Switzerland has an anti racism law that bans denying genocide since 1994. A Turkish party leader denied the Armenian genocide in a speech and an interview in Switzerland, this led to an investigation and severe Turkish-Swiss diplomatic irritations last year (1, 2).

 

[Art Vandelay]

It truly is ironic how the French loves teaching everyone else about free speech yet they don't like to practice it on their own people:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1785103,00.html

One of France's most popular rappers will appear in court today charged with offending public decency with a song in which he referred to France as a "slut" and vowed to "piss" on Napoleon and Charles de Gaulle....

In the video for the song FranSSe, Makela, 30, appeared dressed as a gendarme with two naked women rubbing against the French flag as he rapped: "France is a bitch, don't forget to ****** her till she's exhausted/You have to treat her like a slut, man."

French = the new sick man of Europe.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
This is not nutty at all, it's just a different approach to where freedom of speech and racism collide. And it has nothing to do with violating Turkish sovereignity, oh my god... It's about disowning the Armenian genocide on French soil!

Personally I'm a bit disappointed that the French politicians talk the talk but don't walk the walk here. The voting outcome and participation is laughable.

On a sidenote, Switzerland has an anti racism law that bans denying genocide since 1994. A Turkish party leader denied the Armenian genocide in a speech and an interview in Switzerland, this led to an investigation and severe Turkish-Swiss diplomatic irritations last year (1, 2).

In addition to my post above, what's ironic about what the French did is they have been trying to get Turkey to remove a law that prohibits dissing Turkishness (aka limiting freedom of speech), yet they come up with a law so absurd that limits freedom of speech in their own country.

Its all for the next year's elections in France, nothing more. France haa s strong Armenian community (about half a million IIRC) and this was just and only for that. A lot of the European Press, along with EU representatives blasted France though... so its going to be interesting to see how things work out...

Another thing is: France is a major investor in Turkey and the Turks are apparently boycotting (according to BBC) a lot of French goods... bad for both economies. It is also talked that the French companies will be banned from state auctions in Turkey.

 

[fornax]

This is simply a logical extension of the Holocaust denial laws, and I expect more and more absurd laws in the future. Once the foot is in the door (i.e. Holocaust denial laws), the door will gradually open wider and various countries will start adopting ridiculous laws to suit this or that group. I think Pamuk said it best: France once was the cradle of modern freedoms and liberal thought. It has now become an anti-utopian state where you are told what to think, what to say and what to wear. Most European countries are moving in that direction too.

Just think of the rosy future that awaits us:

- once we're kicked out of Iraq, Iraq adopts a law that makes it a crime to deny that the US committed genocide in Iraq

- Iran adopts a law that forbids claiming that the Jewish holocaust ever happened

- Arab countries adopt laws that forbid the denial of Israeli genocide against Palestinians

- Turkey already has a law that forbids claiming that you're anything but a Turk if you're born in Turkey

and so on, and so on.

 

[Moonbeam]

When you feel like the worst in the world like the people in Turkey and all other people do, you do not want to admit that your own self hate projected onto others like the Armenians, allowed you to kill them to extinction as best as you could.

 

[Infohawk]

There shouldn't be these types of limitations on free speech in the West. I'm usually not a fan of "USA is the most free country in the world" statements but freedom of speech is one thing the US generally does right (exception is some backwards indecency laws).

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There shouldn't be these types of limitations on free speech in the West. I'm usually not a fan of "USA is the most free country in the world" statements but freedom of speech is one thing the US generally does right (exception is some backwards indecency laws).

Yea, well, if you say the wrong thing about the US you get dragged off to a secret prison and tortured, so lets not go there.

Personally I don't really approve af this either, but you can't say they had bad intentions - It's anti-racism law.

 

[sandorski]

Nuts are everywhere! Looks like this won't become law.

 

[f95toli]

Most (all?) european countries have laws that somehow "limit" freedom of speech in some ways or another so this is nothing new from that point of view, generally speaking they are "anti-hate" laws that limit what you can say about minorities.
Some countries like Germany have "holocaust denial" laws for obvious historical reasons. It is important to remember that the germans were not the only ones responsible for the holocaust, they had a lot of help. While the overwhelming majority of the people in e.g. France did their best to resist the occupation during WWII there were still a significant minority that supported the Germans and what they did to the Jews and other "undesirables".

I think one important point is that Europe is much more "pragmatic" when it comes to things like freedom of speech than the US; we agree when it comes to the general principle but we also see that it is very difficult to legislate about; hence laws change.
One obvious reason for these changes is that most european countries can and do change their constitutions from time to time (and some countries, like the UK, does not have a consitution in the first place) which is simply not possible in the US. The american view of a constitution (which includes an almost unlimited "freedom of speech" principle ) as "set in stone" is simply not shared by most europeans.

 

[Zenoth]

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
It truly is ironic how the French loves teaching everyone else about free speech yet they don't like to practice it on their own people:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1785103,00.html

One of France's most popular rappers will appear in court today charged with offending public decency with a song in which he referred to France as a "slut" and vowed to "piss" on Napoleon and Charles de Gaulle....

In the video for the song FranSSe, Makela, 30, appeared dressed as a gendarme with two naked women rubbing against the French flag as he rapped: "France is a bitch, don't forget to ****** her till she's exhausted/You have to treat her like a slut, man."

French = the new sick man of Europe.

New ?

They've always been like that. Mostly been hated by so many other nations around them, and it's been like that since hundreds of years. But, still today, they manage not to care about what others think of them, it doesn't seem to influence them at all, and as they say (or so I've heard) "live and let live" is what they do best. If I am not mistaken De Gaulle once said "France has no friends, she has interests", or something similar. Personally I see the French government as a subjective one. The culture itself, the people, I personally have nothing against them (I'm not one of those who's gonna hate a whole nation for no apparent reasons just because it seems to be the cool trend), but I tend to believe that the French nation is governed by idiots and arrogants (that, also, has been like that since hundreds of years). And this opinion of mine is as objective as possible.

But that story you bring here, about that rapper, such things don't happen often, not enough to say that because of that case alone we must suddenly think all the French are like their bureaucrats. They just want to give a hard time to that guy, so he calms down. I mean, if someone here in the States would hold such thinking and words against us and our nation ... I'm not so sure the normal people would actually appreciate either, whatever liberty we live in.

 

[Snooper]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There shouldn't be these types of limitations on free speech in the West. I'm usually not a fan of "USA is the most free country in the world" statements but freedom of speech is one thing the US generally does right (exception is some backwards indecency laws).

Yea, well, if you say the wrong thing about the US you get dragged off to a secret prison and tortured, so lets not go there.

Personally I don't really approve af this either, but you can't say they had bad intentions - It's anti-racism law.

So who all do you know that has been "dragged off to a secret prison" for saying "the wrong thing" about the US?

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: f95toli
Most (all?) european countries have laws that somehow "limit" freedom of speech in some ways.
Some countries like Germany have "holocaust denial" laws for obvious historical reasons. It is important to remember that the

I think one important point is that Europe is much more "pragmatic" when it comes to things like freedom of speech than the US; we agree when it comes to the general principle but we also see that it is very difficult to legislate about; hence laws change.
One obvious reason for these changes is that most european countries can and do change their constitutions from time to time (and some countries, like the UK, does not have a consitution in the first place) which is simply not possible in the US. The american view of a constitution (which includes an almost unlimited "freedom of speech" principle ) as "set in stone" is simply not shared by most europeans.

We are looking at this from a US perspective. Europeans' pragmatic
approach actually makes sense knowing what they went thru.
They might not embrace full speech whole heartedly, but they don't want to see history repeat either.

I think passing law is a little too much in this case. However, in general Turkey doens't want to acknowledge their role in killings of Armenian, hence authors have been charged (but found not guilty due to EU pressure, Turkey wants to join EU). Turkey isn't that free either.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
In addition to my post above, what's ironic about what the French did is they have been trying to get Turkey to remove a law that prohibits dissing Turkishness (aka limiting freedom of speech), yet they come up with a law so absurd that limits freedom of speech in their own country.

Its all for the next year's elections in France, nothing more. France haa s strong Armenian community (about half a million IIRC) and this was just and only for that. A lot of the European Press, along with EU representatives blasted France though... so its going to be interesting to see how things work out...

Another thing is: France is a major investor in Turkey and the Turks are apparently boycotting (according to BBC) a lot of French goods... bad for both economies. It is also talked that the French companies will be banned from state auctions in Turkey.

I too think that the 2007 elections were the biggest factor why the Armenian genocide is on the political agenda now. However Chirac already poured oil on troubled water and the EU wasn't too enthusiastic either. So opportunism won this one and the Armenian genocide won't trouble the EU-Turkish relations in the foreseeable future.

In my opinion the French law should be directed against denying genocide in general, without singling out the Armenian.

You might find it "ironic" how France develops a free speech-limiting law and is against a Turkish law that does the same thing. However this is not contradictory at all, in my opinion. The French law proposition was very specific and anti-revisionism, but the Turkish Article 301 is used as elastic clause against a broad spectrum of oppositionals and intellectuals and pro-revisionism in nature.

So to oppose genocide denial laws, one either must be a quiet unconditional supporter of free speech even if comes with consequences like revisionist university lecturers (Link in German), or must think that genocide denial is completely harmless, with the third possibility being convinced that genocide deniers like Ahmadinedjad are open to academic discourse if given the platform.

Originally posted by: fornax
This is simply a logical extension of the Holocaust denial laws, and I expect more and more absurd laws in the future. Once the foot is in the door (i.e. Holocaust denial laws), the door will gradually open wider and various countries will start adopting ridiculous laws to suit this or that group. I think Pamuk said it best: France once was the cradle of modern freedoms and liberal thought. It has now become an anti-utopian state where you are told what to think, what to say and what to wear. Most European countries are moving in that direction too.

It will surprise you that some European countries have holocaust/genocide denial laws since the late 1940s (Austria) without further consequences for freedom of speech, so the whole slippery slope argument isn't that convincing. And perfect freedom of speech is granted nowhere, even not in the US.