NuclearNed's climbing wall project diary ***IT'S <sort of> DONE!!!***

[NuclearNed]

Project pics are here:
https://get.google.com/albumarchive...m/AF1QipOmkjeFDN8usy_fXsHxlraXhulcdKDn7-d_Ml0

Hi Everyone,

I'm in the process of building a climbing wall on my property. As I expected, there is a lot of engineering & problem solving involved, so I kind of think some of you might be interested. Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments/suggestions. I will try to remember to post all costs & lessons learned.

Here's the history of the project. I'm a climber, but the closest climbing gym is about an hour away. I started a couple of months ago thinking about building a small outdoor bouldering wall on my property. A bouldering wall is a low-to-the-ground horizontal wall vs. vertical walls that most people are familiar with; it's main purpose is for practicing technique. The original plan was to build it out of purchased lumber, but it soon became apparent that this would make my costs skyrocket.

Somewhere along the line it occurred to me that I could build the structure of the wall out of used utility poles. It turns out they can be relatively cheap if you find the right seller. As it turns out, I have about 3 friends who work for my local utility company... they are providing me with used poles for free. They are even delivering them for free. So I have requested 5 poles, 3 of which have been delivered already. 2 of the poles are about 25', the other is about 30' long. Since the poles are longer than I expected, I've scrapped the bouldering wall plan and I'm going to build more of a traditional climbing wall with about 24' vertical feet of climbing surface planned.

The plan is to place 3 of the poles in a tight triangular formation - approx. 4' apart (4' is the width of a sheet of plywood). I will put the poles 4' in the ground and tie the 3 poles together at regular intervals with treated lumber. 4' deep is normally a little shallow for a utility pole, but since the 3 will be braced on each other I'm pretty sure it will be rock-solid (this is basically the same design of a tower that real engineers built where I work). That will be my central tower against which I will tie poles 4 & 5 to create a total of four 4' wide climbing surfaces.

So the area where I want to put this thing is an extremely rocky section of the mountain where I live. The first problem I wanted to eliminate was whether or not I was going to actually be able to dig 4' deep... I got my post-hole diggers and went to work on a test hole. Luckily it was all packed clay, I didn't hit even a single piece of gravel.

The next problem is that the poles were dropped off at the lowest point of my property. They need to be moved 200-300 yards with an elevation gain of probably 50'-75'. Coincidentally a buddy of mine got a pole from the utility co. at about the same time; he said that he could deadlift the end of his and move it (with effort). So I tried to move one end of mine. It was way heavier than anything I've deadlifted at the gym, but I was able to move & lift it a few inches, and immediately tweaked my back. Lesson learned: absolute perfect form when lifting this crap. The injury took me out for a couple of weeks, but today I was able to carefully deadlift the pole with a lot of effort but no pain.

So the plan to move the logs was to use a tow chain to attach the pole to my truck hitch. While the wifey drives, I will feed roller logs under the pole to help it move along. With a lot of trial & error, what I finally figured out for attaching the poles was to nail a small piece of 2x4 near the end of the pole, then wrap the chain around the pole on the "long" part of the pole. The 2x4 piece keeps the chain from slipping off. This worked. The rest of the plan sort of worked but very poorly. The roller logs kept slipping out; the pole kept twisting; in the end, we moved one of the poles about a third of the way in an hour, and I was worn out from constantly putting the pole back on the roller logs.

We briefly tried to load the unattached end of the pole in a wheelbarrow, but it was very apparent that this wasn't going to work because the wheelbarrow couldn't handle the weight. It felt like an accident waiting to happen.

So that's where I am at the end of today. While in the shower I came up with a good plan... I have 2 wheelbarrows & a lot of scrap lumber. I am going to cannibalize the wheels from the wheelbarrows & build a sort of rolling attachment that I will put under the loose end of the poles. This is more or less how the utility co moves them and seems like a viable option. So far, the project has cost me $0.

 

[Humpy]

What is the plan for tilting up the poles and dropping them in their holes?

 

[NuclearNed]

What is the plan for tilting up the poles and dropping them in their holes?

There are sites online that tell how to do this. Basically, you dig the holes a little bigger than actually needed. Then you hammer 2x4's into the hole on one side to create a backstop. Pull the ground end of the pole into the backstop, put the tow chain around the middle of the pole, then slowly pull it up with the truck. I'll need at least 1 person with a rope around the sky end of the pole to keep it from "wagging" while its being pulled up. The biggest risk is that the person driving the truck pulls it up too quickly - then over onto the truck cab.

 

[Humpy]

Digging a trench that dives down at the hole to guide the pole in and help keep it from wagging is key to that method. Be careful, take video.

Can't you just drag the poles up the hill with the truck, or worried about too much damage?

 

[NuclearNed]

Digging a trench that dives down at the hole to guide the pole in and help keep it from wagging is key to that method. Be careful, take video.

Can't you just drag the poles up the hill with the truck, or worried about too much damage?

Thanks for the advice! Yeah - dragging the pole; I don't want to damage either the pole or the road that I share with my grouchy neighbor

 

[Carson Dyle]

LOL. If you're balking at the cost of lumber, what are you going to do for holds? You can easily put $1000 worth of holds on a very small wall.

And what good does an outdoor wall do you when it's 2 degrees out? Build an 8'x8' wall in your basement and it will be infinitely more beneficial. The other thing about outdoor walls is that they need to be overhanging or in some sort of port so that a little wet weather doesn't render them useless.

The primary purpose of the climbing walls that most people build is for training climbing specific strength. You're building 4 foot wide vertical slabs in the back yard. Complete waste of time.

 

[Fenixgoon]

i'd have a civil engineering friend take a look at your final design for wind/rain loads. the poles themselves don't have a huge cross section, but adding walls massively increases the area. one bad storm and that whole thing might come crashing down. if you have any nearby neighbors - to the point where falling poles or flying walls could do damage, i'd almost recommend against the project for liability reasons.

 

[Humpy]

I can't support my opinion with the math but my construction experience tells me there would be zero issues at first if built like a carpenter would build it, i.e. lag and/or through bolted together with properly nailed sheathing.

Even treated plywood has a fairly limited lifespan when exposed to the elements though, and depending on how old the utility poles are, I would figure you might have 10 years before considering repairs or cutting it down.

 

[NuclearNed]

i'd have a civil engineering friend take a look at your final design for wind/rain loads. the poles themselves don't have a huge cross section, but adding walls massively increases the area. one bad storm and that whole thing might come crashing down. if you have any nearby neighbors - to the point where falling poles or flying walls could do damage, i'd almost recommend against the project for liability reasons.

Agreed - wind is something I've given some thought to. The wall will be in a clearing in the woods (nowhere near neighbors) built within a few feet of a large 10'-12' vertical bank that was excavated to make the clearing. So it is going to have some wind shelter from trees & the bank. Even so, I'm planning on building it "gappy" so that it has less wind resistance. A lot of the online climbing-wall-building-sites recommend pre-drilling a matrix of holes for t-nuts/grips, so that will help also. Still, I think wind has potential to be my #1 problem.

 

[NuclearNed]

I can't support my opinion with the math but my construction experience tells me there would be zero issues at first if built like a carpenter would build it, i.e. lag and/or through bolted together with properly nailed sheathing.

Even treated plywood has a fairly limited lifespan when exposed to the elements though, and depending on how old the utility poles are, I would figure you might have 10 years before considering repairs or cutting it down.

yeah - there are plywood recommendations online on the climbing-wall-building-sites, so I'll probably follow them. Even so, I expect the plywood to have a fairly limited lifespan, even though hopefully the main structure will last considerably longer

 

[skyking]

Ned, the price of renting an appropriate piece of equipment it truly chump change when you have free materials. Let diesel be your friend
What good is a climbing wall when you have sustained permanent damage and can't finish it, let alone use it?
On design and wind loadings:
If you bend your wall into a slight outward facing arc, the strength of the assembly goes up a whole lot. If you then cross tie the back sides of this arc with a pair of cables and turnbuckles, it will become very strong and wind resistant from the backside as well as the front.
slight design change, a couple of turnbuckles and 3/8" cable is also cheap.

 

[Ruptga]

If you wish to make a climbing wall from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

skyking seems to have good ideas too.

 

[skyking]

yeah - there are plywood recommendations online on the climbing-wall-building-sites, so I'll probably follow them. Even so, I expect the plywood to have a fairly limited lifespan, even though hopefully the main structure will last considerably longer

Too bad you are so far away. I have the ideal plywood, 1" MDO form plywood. MDO has a hard surface on it, and waterproof glues in the plys. It is designed for the harsh environment of pouring concrete over and over. It will eventually die but is far and away the best choice for your project.
I have about 100 sheets of 1 and 3/4 that I got off the job for free. I'd give you what you needed but the road trip is prohibitive

 

[NuclearNed]

My first expense: box o' nails, $13.99

So using the wheels I borrowed from my 2 wheelbarrows, I built the little trailery thing that I will use to move my poles. It looks like a redneck Segway without handlebars that a special-ed kid hammered together with a rock. There's nothing beautiful about it, but I told myself it just has to work 5 times and then done. The plan is to attach the pole to my truck using the tow chain, then put this cart thing under the loose end of the pole. I have a lot of confidence that this is going to actually work great, but it's raining so I don't want to try it out today.

 

[NuclearNed]

Ned, the price of renting an appropriate piece of equipment it truly chump change when you have free materials. Let diesel be your friend
What good is a climbing wall when you have sustained permanent damage and can't finish it, let alone use it?
On design and wind loadings:
If you bend your wall into a slight outward facing arc, the strength of the assembly goes up a whole lot. If you then cross tie the back sides of this arc with a pair of cables and turnbuckles, it will become very strong and wind resistant from the backside as well as the front.
slight design change, a couple of turnbuckles and 3/8" cable is also cheap.

I'm having a hard time visualizing the "slight outward facing arc." Can you explain a little more?

 

[NuclearNed]

Too bad you are so far away. I have the ideal plywood, 1" MDO form plywood. MDO has a hard surface on it, and waterproof glues in the plys. It is designed for the harsh environment of pouring concrete over and over. It will eventually die but is far and away the best choice for your project.
I have about 100 sheets of 1 and 3/4 that I got off the job for free. I'd give you what you needed but the road trip is prohibitive

Huh? The Pac NorthWest isn't that far from eastern TN. (seriously I wish I could collect on that offer - thx)

 

[skyking]

Instead of placing all the posts in a line, place the middle two in the same line and the outer posts in a line slightly behind them. Now instead of a straight fence of material to resist the forces of nature, you have a slight curve. A direct wind 90 degrees to the structure will now be imparting a lifting force on the front two posts and a force driving down on the back outer posts, with the axis of rotation located between the two rows. Even a slight angle there will make it inherently stronger.
Then tie those back two posts together with a pair diagonal cables and turnbuckles from each post bottom to the opposite post top.
Now you no longer have a fence-like structure (How many straight fences have you seen blown down?) , but an arc tied into a flat box shape.
On the climbing face, I doubt that having a slight corner to go around at each front post will be a bad thing, on the contrary it will add some variety and possibilities a continuous flat wall does not have.

 

[skyking]

Aw hell I did not see you were already making a triangle. FFS reading comrenshun FTL!

 

[NuclearNed]

Instead of placing all the posts in a line, place the middle two in the same line and the outer posts in a line slightly behind them. Now instead of a straight fence of material to resist the forces of nature, you have a slight curve. A direct wind 90 degrees to the structure will now be imparting a lifting force on the front two posts and a force driving down on the back outer posts, with the axis of rotation located between the two rows. Even a slight angle there will make it inherently stronger.
Then tie those back two posts together with a pair diagonal cables and turnbuckles from each post bottom to the opposite post top.
Now you no longer have a fence-like structure (How many straight fences have you seen blown down?) , but an arc tied into a flat box shape.
On the climbing face, I doubt that having a slight corner to go around at each front post will be a bad thing, on the contrary it will add some variety and possibilities a continuous flat wall does not have.

Got it. As it turns out, what you have described is actually more or less the way I have designed it, although not for the same reasons. Here is a extremely poor representation of how I plan to place my poles:

----5
2-3-4
1----

So from a climbing surface perspective, 1-2-3 will create an inside corner (a feature I want), 3-4-5 will create an outside corner (another feature I want). I intend pole 3 to be slightly offset from poles 2 & 4; I don't want them to be in a straight line because of an option I may implement on face 2-3 and face 3-4.

This layout is subject to change. Poles 3-4-5 make up the central tower triangle but I would also connect poles 1-3 at a high level to create an overhang.

The other layout I keep thinking about is:

----4-5
1-2-3--

In this layout, 2-3-4 is the central tower, with poles 1 & 5 being the "add-ons" to the tower. I think this might be the more stable configuration, and has all the same features as the layout above. In this scenario, I would connect poles 3 & 5 for an overhang.

 

[Mayne]

I lost my best friend as a child from a climbing wall. I have no advice.

 

[skyking]

Huh? The Pac NorthWest isn't that far from eastern TN. (seriously I wish I could collect on that offer - thx)

No kidding, I was going to build a big shop out of all these materials but I decided not to hinder our retirement plans with a $60,000 shop that would add hundreds of dollars each year to the tax bill. I have a stack of 167 4x6 hem/fir that are 20' long, that are now going away, along with that plywood and some TJI trusses.

 

[KillerCharlie]

LOL. If you're balking at the cost of lumber, what are you going to do for holds? You can easily put $1000 worth of holds on a very small wall.

And what good does an outdoor wall do you when it's 2 degrees out? Build an 8'x8' wall in your basement and it will be infinitely more beneficial. The other thing about outdoor walls is that they need to be overhanging or in some sort of port so that a little wet weather doesn't render them useless.

The primary purpose of the climbing walls that most people build is for training climbing specific strength. You're building 4 foot wide vertical slabs in the back yard. Complete waste of time.

OP: I agree with this post. In my opinion, you are not heading the right direction.

Holds, as he said, are extremely expensive. A smaller, wider wall lets you put in more holds, with more variation. A tall wall will have less routes, and you'll spend more time re-arranging holds. Moving the holds will take several times longer since you'll have to be anchored in while moving around.

Then there's the belaying issue. You could either:
- Have someone belay you. That means you can't climb by yourself. You'll also spend more money on ropes. You'll also have to climb up and down a lot to add/remove the rope through the anchor, since you don't want to leave the rope out.
- Buy an auto belaying machine: $$$
- Self belay... If you don't have significant lead climbing or mountaineering experience, do not do this.

With an indoor bouldering wall, all you need is a crash pad. Even an outdoor wall with ropes needs some sort of softened surface to land on in case you get dropped hard.

An indoor bouldering wall gives you way more flexibility. If you decide to climb on a whim, you can be on the wall in the time it takes to put shoes on. With an outdoor wall, climbing is an event - you have to gather gear, haul it outside, and spend time setting things up... if the weather is cooperating.

 

[NuclearNed]

tiny update: while I was on vacation a week ago, my neighbor "Carl" dragged the 3 utility poles from my mailbox area to where I need them. I guess he got tired of seeing them where the utility company had left them. So I'm waiting on my other 2 poles to get delivered. Until then, I have a job that scares me but is necessary: there is a large dead tree that has fallen into a live tree and overhangs the area where the wall is going to be. I'd be an idiot if I didn't cut down this tree before I build the wall under it, so (probably) this coming weekend I need to figure out how to get it down using the "step-down" cutting method. I'm pretty sure I can safely get it down, but there is still risk involved and I'm a little nervous.

 

[highland145]

Just mention it to Carl. It's probably already on his to do list.

 

[skyking]

That's a pain right there. I value life over money, and had access to equipment to use anyway.
My neighbor had a widowmaker like that, a 12" tree sitting in the crook of a limb of a live one, that was hanging over part of where he mowed lawn. I brought the excavator home, sneaked up into his property and pulled it down safely.
Sneaked back out and loaded it up and left. That was the whole job and it took longer to chain and unchain the machine than it did to do the work.
Examine the forces in play very carefully. They call them widowmakers for a well deserved reason.
The base will kick when you saw it off, among other things.