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Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,469
1
76
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
huh? Oil lobbyists are the reason only 2 hybrids get over 40MPG?
so...Green Peace?

Do you really think this?

edit: the problem is so many people think that low emissions and fuel economy are hindered by oil or government. Which is bullshit. Why cant people understand we are at a technology standstill? We just dont have the technology to do better right now. The lowest emissions car that ISNT a hybrid is the TOYOTA Yaris, which is at 29/36 for mileage. Worse mileage than a Civic, but better emissions. So what do you want? The fact is, fossil fuel is the most efficient we have right now. All this bullshit of "oil companies and the government are stifling technology" is such crap.
It's a myth by the oil companies. The technology is there and has been for decades
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
huh? Oil lobbyists are the reason only 2 hybrids get over 40MPG?
so...Green Peace?

Do you really think this?

edit: the problem is so many people think that low emissions and fuel economy are hindered by oil or government. Which is bullshit. Why cant people understand we are at a technology standstill? We just dont have the technology to do better right now. The lowest emissions car that ISNT a hybrid is the TOYOTA Yaris, which is at 29/36 for mileage. Worse mileage than a Civic, but better emissions. So what do you want? The fact is, fossil fuel is the most efficient we have right now. All this bullshit of "oil companies and the government are stifling technology" is such crap.
It's a myth by the oil companies. The technology is there and has been for decades
All we need now is an efficient way to produce and distribute hydrogen.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,607
3
76
Gas and diesel as fuels do not stink. People should be willing to pay $10/gallon if that is what it takes. Its the artificial price controls on the economy that is retarding the recovery from 35 years of manipulation that is coming back to haunt us. The U.S. was 95% self sufficient in the early 70's now to become less than 50% self sufficient today, all in the name of making things cheaper. You don't build an economy on cheap, you build it on a combination of labor, land, and capital. Manipulation of one facet in the big picture is a resulting perversion of the others. The founders of the Theory of Capitalism must be rolling over in their graves when they see modern America. It certainly is only a half-blood of a step brother's mailman's friend down the street's cousin's sister-in-law acquaintance's version of capitalism.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
So you are telling us that all the 18 wheeler over the road trucks meet these stringent Diesel Standards? Somehow, I doubt that. . . . .
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,873
44
91
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Diesel is also over $4 now...
If you do the math, it comes out to a 10-15% increase in price for a minimum 30% increase in efficiency. And that's not even getting into all the real alternatives available for diesels, like biodiesel or even used cooking grease, that are not available for gasoline engines (ethanol being a joke).
Its 30% here in NJ.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,943
1
0
If I understand correctly (which I may not), diesel gas is less refined than regular gasoline. So why the hell is the price higher?
 

Foxery

Golden Member
Jan 24, 2008
1,709
0
0
There are plenty of superior technologies available, but the government and the Megacorps don't like to be rushed. Here's an article from last year -

A guy from Kansas who dropped out of high school to work in his father's car
shop now makes his living proving wrong the best engineers in the auto
industry. He converts large vehicles (SUVs, muscle cars) to use hybrid
and/or bio-fuel engines, while doubling their horsepower at the same
time. He revamped a Hummer to get 60 miles per gallon and run on fast
good grease.

So much for the auto industry's idea that only smaller cars can be efficient.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/30/14161/066

There's a longer description of his work here, for those interested.
http://www.fastcompany.com/mag...motorhead-messiah.html

Originally posted by: piasabird
So you are telling us that all the 18 wheeler over the road trucks meet these stringent Diesel Standards? Somehow, I doubt that. . . . .
Current US laws exempt large trucks from emissions standards. No one has yet been willing to be the first to tell every large corporation in America that it needs to overhaul or replace its trucking fleet so I can breathe.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,552
734
126
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
huh? Oil lobbyists are the reason only 2 hybrids get over 40MPG?
so...Green Peace?

Do you really think this?

edit: the problem is so many people think that low emissions and fuel economy are hindered by oil or government. Which is bullshit. Why cant people understand we are at a technology standstill? We just dont have the technology to do better right now. The lowest emissions car that ISNT a hybrid is the TOYOTA Yaris, which is at 29/36 for mileage. Worse mileage than a Civic, but better emissions. So what do you want? The fact is, fossil fuel is the most efficient we have right now. All this bullshit of "oil companies and the government are stifling technology" is such crap.
It's a myth by the oil companies. The technology is there and has been for decades
I suggest you do a little more research. Hydrogen is a good start, but its no where near as efficient as fossil fuel as a net fuel.

On problem is it is very difficult and costly to manufacture, process, store, and transport. Storage tanks require metel hydryde absorbers and/or a carbon absorber, which are VERY expensive. Its just plain inefficient. It also has a very low energy density compared to gasoline or dieself. This means it takes more fuel to deliver the same output of energy. Up to 4 times more. The first step in creating usuable hydrogen uses ALOT of electricy and water, most of which is generated by fossil fuel plants. Again, inefficient.

You may say to yourself "If research was put into this, we could find an answer to make it more efficient". Yes thats true, but production is what it is. Also, the glaring fact that hydrogen itself requires so mcu more volume to produce the same enrgy cant be fixed. It is what it is.

Im not saying hydrogen is a bad solution. Im simply pointing out we simply dont have the technology to make it even close as efficient as dino fuel. And it isnt because oil companies and the government are protecting it. It doesnt exist.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: piasabird
So you are telling us that all the 18 wheeler over the road trucks meet these stringent Diesel Standards? Somehow, I doubt that. . . . .
They may be exempt from them, however they are not exempt from needing to be made to run properly on ULSD, which means that they will also be using CJ-4 oils.

Also, it's all about mpg with the truckers, and when a rig is belching black smoke it's not getting the best mpg it could...meaning it's costing money.

Check out the brand new semi's going down the road...their exhaust is clear just like a cars. That's how it'll be going forward...

Chuck
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,552
734
126
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: piasabird
So you are telling us that all the 18 wheeler over the road trucks meet these stringent Diesel Standards? Somehow, I doubt that. . . . .
They may be exempt from them, however they are not exempt from needing to be made to run properly on ULSD, which means that they will also be using CJ-4 oils.

Also, it's all about mpg with the truckers, and when a rig is belching black smoke it's not getting the best mpg it could...meaning it's costing money.

Check out the brand new semi's going down the road...their exhaust is clear just like a cars. That's how it'll be going forward...

Chuck
Yeah those new rigs are pretty efficient. Many of them get better mileage on the highway than some consumer vehicles :) Pretty cool.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,451
360
126
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
If I understand correctly (which I may not), diesel gas is less refined than regular gasoline. So why the hell is the price higher?
Who knows. Fuel prices seem largely decoupled from logic. Given there isn't really any alternative to oil I suppose thats understandable.
 

CyberDuck

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
258
0
0
As a European living in a largely diesel dominated country (when it comes to new cars) I can tell some facts from here:

- Diesel is usually less expensive than petrol in my country
- Diesel cars are taxed less, so the price difference between diesel cars and petrol cars are smal, if not in favor of the diesel
- Almost all new diesel cars have factory mounted particle filters, so particle emmission is virtually non existant (and there is no stink)
- The most modern diesels, like the new VW passat bluemotion 1.9 TDI has a fuel consumption of 45.2 miles/us gallon (combined) - 53.5 highway even if its a rather large car, and is popular here

Test drive of Blue motion - UK (Notice that UK gallons is larger than US gallons, 1 imerial gallon = 1.2 US gallons)

Gofl TDI blumotion


Regards

Jostein
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
If I understand correctly (which I may not), diesel gas is less refined than regular gasoline. So why the hell is the price higher?
Who knows. Fuel prices seem largely decoupled from logic. Given there isn't really any alternative to oil I suppose thats understandable.
I wonder if it's because gasoline demand is so high, that Big Oil is maxing out gasoline output at the expense of diesel output...then supply and demand kicks in and we have high prices because of lower supply.

What needs to happen is that Big Oil needs to big a nice new diesel refinery...

Chuck
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,308
1
81
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
If I understand correctly (which I may not), diesel gas is less refined than regular gasoline. So why the hell is the price higher?
Who knows. Fuel prices seem largely decoupled from logic. Given there isn't really any alternative to oil I suppose thats understandable.
I wonder if it's because gasoline demand is so high, that Big Oil is maxing out gasoline output at the expense of diesel output...then supply and demand kicks in and we have high prices because of lower supply.

What needs to happen is that Big Oil needs to big a nice new diesel refinery...

Chuck
but u can't build a refinery because refineries are evil!!! that's why none have been built in years...
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
Originally posted by: Lonyo
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America
All we need now is an efficient way to produce and distribute hydrogen.
Pick your flavor, Hydro Power, Solar, Wind, nuclear....

I am sure if we built a massive solar farm that used up all the deserts down from texas all the way across to california we would could probably power every car in the usa....
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,297
4
81
Originally posted by: Fern
Raises some questions, no?

1. Why hasn't the government (Congress) already exempted these vehicles?

2. Why isn't Chrysler pushing this exemption?

3. What are the "greenies" gonna say about relaxed emmissions?

Getting an exemption passed could make for interesting "bedfellows" in lobbying activities; Chrysler + Unions vs. Greens + Oil Co's (and maybe other Big 2 automaker).

Fern
1) What is the incentive of government to "solve problems"? If they solve the problem, they have no platform to run on.

2) What would be the effect of Diesel prices at it's current supply (or lack thereof) if car companies are able to sell these diesel cars.
 

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