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Now this is interesting

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,535
733
126
Well, thanks to tighter regulations that so many people have been screaming about, we have pushed ourselves out of efficiency it seems. So ironic IMHO. Although diesel right now is priced higher, still interesting.

35 MPG: Why Wait Until 2020?

One of the keys to restarting the American economy is staring us in the face. While our future hinges on the rapid adoption of fuel-efficient vehicles, our government stands in the way of a rapid free market solution.

35 MPG can be an immediate reality, with one domestic manufacturer, if the United States government would only allow it to happen. Our elected representatives need to be aware of the facts and make the appropriate decisions.

Chrysler is uniquely positioned among the Big Three US automakers. Unlike Ford and General Motors, Chrysler is already building a slew of high-MPG diesel-powered vehicles right here in the United States.

Amazing as it may seem in these difficult times, Chrysler is not allowed to sell those cars domestically, due to recently tightened emissions regulations. With the exception of the domestically-available Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel, all of Chrysler?s North American manufactured high-MPG diesel-equipped vehicles are being shipped abroad.

Each and every one of Chrysler?s European models is available with a diesel engine, with the exception of the Dodge Viper. In fact, a diesel engine can be found under the hood of more than 50% of the vehicles that Chrysler sells in Europe.

All-in-all, a dozen Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep diesel-engined models are currently available outside of the United States, but are not sold domestically.

Here?s the eye-opener ? half of those models currently achieve 35 miles per gallon combined.

That?s 35 MPG ? right now.

And what?s even more crazy? All of these 35 MPG cars and SUVs are built in North American plants by North American workers ? American citizens cannot buy and drive the fuel-efficient cars they build.

The thriftiest of the bunch delivers nearly 50 MPG on the highway ? and it?s no dog off the line, turning in 0-62 mile per hour (MPH) times under nine seconds. The fastest in the pack delivers 7.6 second 0-62 times and 35.6 MPG on the highway.

Needless to say, these are wonderful world-class cars, a world apart from your Uncle?s noisy, slow, smelly 80?s-era diesel.

The Mercedes-Benz V6 diesel-equipped Jeep Grand Cherokee is the first US-built passenger vehicle to meet the tougher Federal emissions requirements. With the emissions work done on the Mercedes? 3.0 liter engine, we expect the Chrysler 300 to be the next diesel-powered domestic, as it shares the same powerplant. (At present, diesel 300s are being built in Graz, Austria.)

Chrysler is using four different diesel engines, in all:

2.0 liter Volkswagen turbo-diesel inline four (Avenger, Caliber, Compass, Journey, Sebring, Patriot)
2.2 liter Mercedes-Benz inline four (PT Cruiser)
2.8 liter VM Motari inline four (Cherokee, Grand Voyager, Nitro, Wrangler)
3.0 liter Mercedes-Benz V6 (300, Commander, Grand Cherokee)

What if the federal government temporarily rolled back the emissions requirements for one or two years, to allow the sale of these fuel-sipping vehicles while Chrysler and its partners complete the engineering necessary to meet the current regulations?

Crazier schemes have been implemented to stimulate the economy, no doubt about that. But this one just might work ? by spurring investment and putting people back to work.

As you ponder that thought, take a gander at a group of specifications that compare the European diesels with the most fuel-efficient engines in each of the US domestics ?

 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
106
Raises some questions, no?

1. Why hasn't the government (Congress) already exempted these vehicles?

2. Why isn't Chrysler pushing this exemption?

3. What are the "greenies" gonna say about relaxed emmissions?

Getting an exemption passed could make for interesting "bedfellows" in lobbying activities; Chrysler + Unions vs. Greens + Oil Co's (and maybe other Big 2 automaker).

Fern
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,150
0
0
Sounds like my province not allowing electric cars (~60kmh) for "safety reasons". Meanwhile, they let people ride 50cc scooters and max ~25kmh, unregulated electric scooters.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,993
8,366
126
The "greenies" are more concerned about diesel particulate emissions than fuel economy, even though diesels emit 70% less greenhouse gases in addition to getting 30% better fuel economy.
 

Veramocor

Senior member
Mar 2, 2004
390
1
0
A few comments,

1st: Diesel engines are more efficient than gas, however gasoline contains only about 90% of the energy of a gallon of Diesel. Thus the fuel efficiencies are not completely comparable.

2nd: Diesel is much more expensive currently.

3rd: Refineries can only adjust the output of Diesel vs. gasoline so much. Europe is an interesting case is that because it is switching to Diesel cars, it has excess gasoline which is exported to the U.S. which may be decreasing the price of gasoline here (in comparison to how much a barrel of oil is). Thus if we all switched to diesel cars we wouldn't have enough.



 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
Originally posted by: Vic
The "greenies" are more concerned about diesel particulate emissions than fuel economy, even though diesels emit 70% less greenhouse gases in addition to getting 30% better fuel economy.
Greens care deeply about being able to control others and inflicting punishment on the rest of us for our capitalist "sins;" practical things that actually help conversation (e.g. nuclear power), not so much.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
I've been wondering why the domestics haven't done this now for years. Another example is the South American made Ford Ranger. It's got a couple of diesel options, each I'm sure gets better mileage than the 3.0L or 4.0L gassers the Ranger has in the NA market. Ford must not want to dent their F-150 sales and jeopardize the Best Selling Truck for 12234 years running title they've got... :roll:

I'm really not one for conspiracy theories, but truly I believe Domestic auto manufacturers, Big Oil, and Congress is making deals here behind the scenes to keep these diesel options from us.

Just make it an option and let us consumers decide which engine we want...is that so hard????

Chuck
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,993
8,366
126
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Diesel is also over $4 now...
If you do the math, it comes out to a 10-15% increase in price for a minimum 30% increase in efficiency. And that's not even getting into all the real alternatives available for diesels, like biodiesel or even used cooking grease, that are not available for gasoline engines (ethanol being a joke).
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Diesel is also over $4 now...
True, but that diesel Dodge Caliber gets 49MPG highway...if we can get small sedans with that kind of efficiency, the small added cost for diesel will still be worth it.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Diesel is also over $4 now...
If you do the math, it comes out to a 10-15% increase in price for a minimum 30% increase in efficiency. And that's not even getting into all the real alternatives available for diesels, like biodiesel or even used cooking grease, that are not available for gasoline engines (ethanol being a joke).
Why not factor in the additional cost you pay for the diesel models? Say it's about 2-3000 + financing + add'l maintenance costs. You prob find it takes a couple of years to break even compared to a gas car today.

The other very valid points to consider are what Veramocor posted:
Originally posted by: Veramocor
1st: Diesel engines are more efficient than gas, however gasoline contains only about 90% of the energy of a gallon of Diesel. Thus the fuel efficiencies are not completely comparable.

2nd: Diesel is much more expensive currently.

3rd: Refineries can only adjust the output of Diesel vs. gasoline so much. Europe is an interesting case is that because it is switching to Diesel cars, it has excess gasoline which is exported to the U.S. which may be decreasing the price of gasoline here (in comparison to how much a barrel of oil is). Thus if we all switched to diesel cars we wouldn't have enough.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Originally posted by: Veramocor
A few comments,

1st: Diesel engines are more efficient than gas, however gasoline contains only about 90% of the energy of a gallon of Diesel. Thus the fuel efficiencies are not completely comparable.
We buy car fuel in gallons/litres.
Fuel efficiency is comparable IMO because of how we buy it. We buy based on volume of liquid, not based on energy density.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,993
8,366
126
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Why not factor in the additional cost you pay for the diesel models? Say it's about 2-3000 + financing + add'l maintenance costs. You prob find it takes a couple of years to break even compared to a gas car today.
Diesels are not much more expensive than their gasoline counterparts anymore. It's just that you have to make an apples-to-apples comparison, namely with a gasoline model that also has turbocharging and direct fuel injection. Compare a TDI price-wise against a GTI, for example.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,469
1
76
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
huh? Oil lobbyists are the reason only 2 hybrids get over 40MPG?
so...Green Peace?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,535
733
126
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
huh? Oil lobbyists are the reason only 2 hybrids get over 40MPG?
so...Green Peace?

Do you really think this?

edit: the problem is so many people think that low emissions and fuel economy are hindered by oil or government. Which is bullshit. Why cant people understand we are at a technology standstill? We just dont have the technology to do better right now. The lowest emissions car that ISNT a hybrid is the TOYOTA Yaris, which is at 29/36 for mileage. Worse mileage than a Civic, but better emissions. So what do you want? The fact is, fossil fuel is the most efficient we have right now. All this bullshit of "oil companies and the government are stifling technology" is such crap.
 

Lt 486

Banned
Mar 17, 2008
36
0
0
There is no conspirasy.
North America does not have infrastructure for CLEAN diesel fuel as Europe does.
See black smoke out of big rigs? Want to inhale it?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,993
8,366
126
Originally posted by: Lt 486
There is no conspirasy.
North America does not have infrastructure for CLEAN diesel fuel as Europe does.
See black smoke out of big rigs? Want to inhale it?
I'll agree that there is no conspiracy, but as microscopic particulate emissions are the most harmful aspect of diesels, I just felt the need to point out that the black smoke (meaning large particulates) is actually (relatively) preferable.
But yeah, it's only recently that US has had better access to low-sulfur diesel fuel. This is in large part because most of our oil sources (Mexico, Venezuela, ME) are "sour" or relatively high in sulfur.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Big fan of the diesel, the newer engines are cleaner than gas. As Vic points out diesel vehicles can be made to run on fules created from multiple sources other than oil, and as such offers a chance at a more flexible fueling infrastructure.

And we should be making hybrid electric diesels.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
All onroad diesels sold in the US 2007 and later have to run on the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) and use CJ-4 rated oil which chops down the ZDDP add in the oil so less phosphorus is burnt off in the engine oil.

Clean diesel has arrived in the US, it shouldn't be used as an excuse anymore.

EDIT: Even the pre-2007 onroad diesels are having to run the new ULSD...many times to their detriment, but, we have switched over as a country.

Chuck
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,191
63
91
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Yet of the top 10 hybrid vehicles in America

only 2 got over 40 mpg

and only 4 over 30 mpg

Good going to all the big oil lobbyists.

http://autos.yahoo.com/article...69/top-10-2008-hybrids

A non-hybrid Civic gets better gas mileage than 60% of the Top 10 2008 Hybrids

:thumbsdown:
Well, there are really only two current hybrids even worth buying, way to go big oil and big auto. 35 mpg is really not that great, imo the target should be much higher for a passenger car. My last car, a 10 year old Saturn got 35 36 at highway speeds. My current car gets 2X that and it is a 2000 model and it doesn't even require electric to maintain that on the Highway.

Diesel or not, cars should be getting much better than 35mpg.

edit: I am by no means a honda or Toyota fan boy, but they had cars in the 90's that could do 50 mpg, and my current car can do 65 - 70ish at highway speeds. I can disable the battery pack and still get that, it just takes longer to get to speed. Toyota has also been into the 40's with a few of their models. This isn't even counting the micro sized cars like the metros and yes, my Insight makes a metro look small.
 

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