Now that we know HOW to improve Handling in a car,

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: andylawcc

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

That's the best thing you can do for handling. Nothing improves mechanical grip like better tires. Trust me I know, I went from Micheling MXV4s to Yokohama AVS ES100 (both same size) and the difference is phemonenal.

so uhh...how'd you like my driving?

those Yokos AVS doesn't last very long huh? I remember they are pretty low in thread life.

i think they last pretty long for summer performance tires. Obviously they don't compare in tread life to regular all-season tires, but for other tires in their class, they are pretty good in terms of tread life and grip.

Plus our car doesn't get that much mileage anyway, so its ok. I have seperate winter tires as well since you can't use AVS ES100 in the winter.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: andylawcc

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

That's the best thing you can do for handling. Nothing improves mechanical grip like better tires. Trust me I know, I went from Micheling MXV4s to Yokohama AVS ES100 (both same size) and the difference is phemonenal.

so uhh...how'd you like my driving?

those Yokos AVS doesn't last very long huh? I remember they are pretty low in thread life.

You should see the new cars coming out on Yoko A048R's:

Advan A048R

1 More

Treadwear: 60

Hehe. They grip like mad though.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: Ornery
I only had one acquaintance who ran in Autocross and rally events. A couple... actually only one co-worker (Edit: just remembered the second one) who raced at a drag strip. But by God, there are so many I've known with pseudo race cars having a go around town.

There are thousands of members here with "sports cars". What percentage do you think will EVER race at a track? Even just the ones who insist on having manuals, because they "want to be one with their car." :roll: What percentage of them will ever race at a track? I'm thinking 5% at most!

The reason being that insurance companies will not cover you if your car gets damaged at an auto-x event or drags trip.

I DO drive aggressively on the street. It may not be the best place for it, but I'll be covered if something happens to my car.

Someone respond to what I said.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: Ornery
I only had one acquaintance who ran in Autocross and rally events. A couple... actually only one co-worker (Edit: just remembered the second one) who raced at a drag strip. But by God, there are so many I've known with pseudo race cars having a go around town.

There are thousands of members here with "sports cars". What percentage do you think will EVER race at a track? Even just the ones who insist on having manuals, because they "want to be one with their car." :roll: What percentage of them will ever race at a track? I'm thinking 5% at most!

The reason being that insurance companies will not cover you if your car gets damaged at an auto-x event or drags trip.

I DO drive aggressively on the street. It may not be the best place for it, but I'll be covered if something happens to my car.

Someone respond to what I said.

I'm not sure if you said that expecting to be flamed or what, but that's a pretty stupid thing to do. Drive aggressive on the street just cause your insured. I'm not sure what your defintion is of aggressive, but if its like driving at an auto-x, then thats pretty bad.

And the chances of your car getting damaged at an auto-x is pretty low.

Apex: No way those tires are street legal!!

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Apex: No way those tires are street legal!!

Yeah, they're actually DOT approved. The Pirelli P-Zero Corsa's are almost exactly the same (6/32" depth, 60 treadwear). Hoosier's version has 20 treadwear. LOL.

 

[andylawcc]

Originally posted by: Apex

You should see the new cars coming out on Yoko A048R's:

Advan A048R

1 More

Treadwear: 60

Hehe. They grip like mad though.

aren't those the one sponsers most of the participants in the Japan's D1 Drifting GP?


anyone heard of Falkan's Azenis Sport?

http://www.discounttiredirect....assenger%2FPerformance

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: Ornery
Tires are critical, and since they need to be replaced anyway, it's an economical "upgrade". BTW, what's the deal with the paper thin sidewalls? What do these boneheads know, that these guys don't?

im no car nut. but maybe for extreme high performance uses like the F1s...thicker sidewalls are better.

but i recently switched from 16" wheels with stock Michellin tires to 18" wheels with Pirelli all season tires. Now it maybe the Pirelli tires...but my handling and cornering abilities has shot thru the roof with the new wheel/tire setup

Tire size is controlled by the rules in F1 not by technology or what works best. Tires are hand made and the teams decide which of the two tire manufacturers currently in F1 (Bridgestone and Michelin) to buy their tires from before the season starts and engineer their car to work well with those tires on each track in the conditions on the day the race is held. There are different tire compounds developed for each track with different levels of grip and wear and the teams decide which compound they will use for the weekend prior to Saturday qualifying.

Tires are strictly controlled and there are thick rulebooks on all aspects of how the tire is constructed, dimensions of the tire and even wear of the tire during a race. Any infringement on these rules and you risk disqualification from the event.

You can't really compare an F1 car to a road car in any way. Well, you can but it would be pointless.

Edit-An F1 car is much stiffer than any road car and the tires have waaay more grip than anything you will ever experience in ANY road car. An F1 car decelerates at 1g just from letting off the throttle at speed and will reach up to 5gs deceleration under heavy braking.

Handling, simply put, is a combination of suspension setup, weight distribution, chassis stiffness, brakes and tire choice.

 

[Ornery]

I guess that was OK driving, Anooj. A course like that just screams for a go-kart to me, so what do I know?

I assumed from the start this was for street use. I find it amusing that full race F1 machines can get mad handling despite having tall sidewalls, but our boy racers need paper thin sidwalls for city streets! :roll:

If a car is being trailered to events for trophies, or money, by all means, pull out all the stops. But, if this is for use on a daily commuter, WTF, use some common sense! (And save some money in the process.)

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I guess that was OK driving, Anooj. A course like that just screams for a go-kart to me, so what do I know?

I assumed from the start this was for street use. I find it amusing that full race F1 machines can get mad handling despite having tall sidewalls, but our boy racers need paper thin sidwalls for city streets! :roll:

If a car is being trailered to events for trophies, or money, by all means, pull out all the stops. But, if this is for use on a daily commuter, WTF, use some common sense! (And save some money in the process.)

Well, they do but for different reasons. In F1 the tire essentially becomes part of the suspension by offering more flex and spring than the suspension does. An F1 car also weighs about 1200 lbs. Your average street car weighs about 3000 lbs.

F1 tires also operate at much much higher temps than street tires do and have so much more grip because they are very soft compared to street tires. They only last about 20-30 laps on a circuit like Spa or Imola.

Your average street car has loads of flex in the suspension and chassis already and even in the stock tires. That is why stiffening it up a bit through larger rims, lower profile tires and firmer shocks can generally improve the handling characteristics of a road car.

The two examples really have nothing to do with each other except on the most basic level.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Someone respond to what I said.

I'm not sure if you said that expecting to be flamed or what, but that's a pretty stupid thing to do. Drive aggressive on the street just cause your insured. I'm not sure what your defintion is of aggressive, but if its like driving at an auto-x, then thats pretty bad.

And the chances of your car getting damaged at an auto-x is pretty low.

Apex: No way those tires are street legal!!

No, it wasn't a flame. I've seen a new S2000 get $10k+ in damage at a local auto-x. I can't afford to pay that out of pocket.

So I do drive hard on normal roads. I ccelerate as much as the little Miata will muster, use throttle induced oversteer to corner and u-turn in the middle of the street. If I'm in the mood to do anything too aggressive I find some nice empty backroads.

 

[Ornery]

"Your average street car has loads of flex in the suspension and chassis already and even in the stock tires. That is why stiffening it up a bit through larger rims, lower profile tires and firmer shocks can generally improve the handling characteristics of a road car."

How horrible is the handling from the start, when you consider it's using the exact same roads that tractor trailer rigs can easily navigate? How friggin' firm does it have to be for urban and suburban use? Slap some high quality rubber on those factory rims, and achieve 80% of your goal, without sacrificing ride in any way. That last 20% will cost a small fortune, ruin the ride, and be TOTALLY unnecessary 99.9% of the time you're driving.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"Your average street car has loads of flex in the suspension and chassis already and even in the stock tires. That is why stiffening it up a bit through larger rims, lower profile tires and firmer shocks can generally improve the handling characteristics of a road car."

How horrible is the handling from the start, when you consider it's using the exact same roads that tractor trailer rigs can easily navigate? How friggin' firm does it have to be for urban and suburban use? Slap some high quality rubber on those factory rims, and achieve 80% of your goal, without sacrificing ride in any way. That last 20% will cost a small fortune, ruin the ride, and be TOTALLY unnecessary 99.9% of the time you're driving.

Why buy any sports car? 99.9% of the time, you're not going to be using the full acceleration, nor cornering. You may as well buy a honda civic and have a better ride, better gas economy, and lower maintenance costs. You'll get to your destination almost as fast, and that last 20% time savings with a sports car will cost you a large fortune.

 

[Ornery]

I think you're right, Gabriel. That's why my ideal car would be a living room on wheels, that's as fast as possible. Just don't give a rat's ass about handling, because I drive on suburban roads, with curbs, speed bumps, railroad crossings and pot holes. Only reason I'd buy a Vette is for more speed, not handling. Got zero interest in teeth rattling suspensions. I have a feeling most people lose interest in that crap REAL quick! Kinda like overclockers yearning for quieter computers.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"Your average street car has loads of flex in the suspension and chassis already and even in the stock tires. That is why stiffening it up a bit through larger rims, lower profile tires and firmer shocks can generally improve the handling characteristics of a road car."

How horrible is the handling from the start, when you consider it's using the exact same roads that tractor trailer rigs can easily navigate? How friggin' firm does it have to be for urban and suburban use? Slap some high quality rubber on those factory rims, and achieve 80% of your goal, without sacrificing ride in any way. That last 20% will cost a small fortune, ruin the ride, and be TOTALLY unnecessary 99.9% of the time you're driving.

just to add that replacing tires can affect ride and noise.

Most sticky tires have a harsher ride (I'm not saying it IS harsh, but it is stiffer than all seasons; even if the sidewall is the SAME) and also they are noiser. Or get noiser over time anyway. So switching to better tires doesn't always mean that your ride will be unchanged.

Just to add, if you have any variation of Michelin MXV4's GET RID OF THEM! They are the product of satan. SATAN designed those tires himself...

Can ya tell I hate MXV4s?

Look Ornery, if people want a better handling car, they usually go all out. Just changing tires doesn't do it. Now I'm making the assumption that they do this because they goto the track or some legal competitive arena to fully exploit their modfications. If they don't goto these arenas, then they probably just like to have those modifications for the sake of it. Maybe it makes them feel better about themselves or bragging rights or whatever. I don't particulary agree with people who do it for those reasons, but hey...it's their money not mine. And if it makes them happy, then good for them.

Now I did exactly what you stated. I have only changed the tires to high-performance summer tires and added a strut bar and rear sway bar (pretty cheap...around $250 CDN in total for both). I haven't gone the route of shocks/springs/bushings/etc.. yet..and I probably won't.

Also people who lower cars, usually do it for looks. I'm not talking about extreme lowering, but something like a 1-1.5inch drop. It can make a big difference in the look of some cars (see 4th gen Maximas).

Finally, there is a compromise to keep a stiff suspension yet have a nice ride. But it costs $$$. You can buy adjustable shocks that go from soft to harsh. Some have to be adjusted physically and other more expensive models allow you to do it electronically on-the-fly from inside the car. Those electronic ones offer a wide range of options and are big bucks.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I think you're right, Gabriel. That's why my ideal car would be a living room on wheels, that's as fast as possible. Just don't give a rat's ass about handling, because I drive on suburban roads, with curbs, speed bumps, railroad crossings and pot holes. Only reason I'd buy a Vette is for more speed, not handling. Got zero interest in teeth rattling suspensions. I have a feeling most people lose interest in that crap REAL quick! Kinda like overclockers yearning for quieter computers.

but that's the thing though, you can't have a FAST car without it being a good handler, or atleast having a stiffer suspension. If your gonna upgrade the power, you gotta make sure the chassis is stiff enough to handle it.

Why do you think manufacturer's who make high performance variants of their models beef up the suspension when they upgrade the power. From the Mercury Maraduer (sp?) to the M3/M5 to the AMG models of Mercedes. When they incrased the power, they increased the handling quotient of the cars.

it would be downright dangerous to have say, a Crown Vic, with a 450hp engine on stock suspnesion/chassis/wheels/brakes that were meant for 280hp or whatever the stock hp is.

that Bentley you pictured has a fairly stiff chassis/suspension.

 

[Ornery]

You're right about some tires being too noisy. If "performance tires" is synonymous with more noise, PLUS cost more money... damn, that's a lousy deal! I mean really, how often do you get to enjoy the fruit of your expenditure? Most of the time you'd just be cringing at the noise! I hear people gripe about some interiors being too ugly to live with on a daily basis. Can't imagine why a harsh ride would be so universally tolerable, especially when the benefits are so rarely enjoyed. Tried damn hard to find a good link for s2000crash.mpeg, but they're all dead.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Ornery
You're right about some tires being too noisy. If "performance tires" is synonymous with more noise, PLUS cost more money... damn, that's a lousy deal! I mean really, how often do you get to enjoy the fruit of your expenditure? Most of the time you'd just be cringing at the noise! I hear people gripe about some interiors being too ugly to live with on a daily basis. Can't imagine why a harsh ride would be so universally tolerable, especially when the benefits are so rarely enjoyed. Tried damn hard to find a good link for s2000crash.mpeg, but they're all dead.

first off, performance tires aren't always more expensive. The ones I bought were cheaper than the MXV4s that came OEM on my car (actually three of our cars that we bought over time came with MXV4s).

And they were quieter than teh MXV4s too. My point is that there are some "normal" tires that are loud as well. Some brands are loud, some aren't. So far my ES100s have been quiet and a total pleasure to own. Plus they are AWESOME in the wet. I mean really really good in the wet.

Back to harsh ride, some people don't mind, some people do. I don't mind a harsh ride, cause no matter how harsh it is, its still smooth on a reasonably nice highway. And even cars with soft suspensions ride hard on rough road...so either way on rough roads you'll get a harsh ride, just one benig more worse than the other...but it'll still be bad both ways. My only pet peeve is wind noise and engine noies at crusing speeds.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Cop cars have 15" wheels, instead of 17" ones so they can drive over curbs without needing new[/] 17" rims. The cars are not particularly built for speed, though in a few places there a special purpose cop cars with LS1s and other hihg performance engines. In general the Crown Vic is about as fast a your grandpa's crown vic. Officers receive a lot of training in how to drive. The fact is in any given 'chase' the cops could trade cars with the suspect, and still catch them.

And As ZV pointed out, on the odd occasion when they run into a particularly quick car and/or driver, they always have the radio to back them up.

As far as improving your car's handling, it depends on teh car. Tires are almost always a must, but on some cars suspension is the other biggie, on other it might be a flexible-frame, and so on. All the suspension in the world won't make a car handle better if its unibody isn't up to the task.

 

[Ornery]

Got my wife some Goodrich Traction T/As to replace her pathetic Michelin Symmetrys, which were dangerous in the wet and snow! The guy who sold us the BFGs said the Symmetrys were actually good tires, but ours were too worn, despite having visibly good tread on them.

Well, the BFGs are about the same as far as quiet goes, but I can't even brake them loose accelerating from a stop, while turning on wet asphalt! Well, maybe if I really tried, but not easily. Great tire at a great price. Got the damn things at Sears during friends & family night for a song! Screw Michelin from now on...

 

[CFster]

Who the heck said F1 cars have "onboard brakes" to reduce unsprung weight? Do they mean the brakes are mounted inboard - similar to the old Jaguars? No.

They have regular hub mounted brakes just like any other car. And the reason why F1 cars have such high profile tires is because the FIA mandates that they have to run a small diameter wheel. The reason they did this is to reduce the size of the brakes - you can only fit so big of a rotor inside a given wheel. They already brake insanely fast - to the point of making passing almost impossible. Letting them have larger brakes would result in faster laptimes and less "racing" - exactly what would be bad for the series. I say get rid of carbon fiber brakes all together. Make them go back to steel. That should result in more passing.

Also, it's well known that a 1/3 pound of tire pressure in an F1 car is worth about 600lbs of spring rate. And that simply going from one tire manufacturer to two in the past few years has resulted in a "tire war" which has brought laptimes down by almost 5 seconds at some circuits.