Now minimal wagers want a hike big enuf to afford a 2 bedroom apartment

[ch33zw1z]

Does not make either a reality to strive for.

I would bet that the majority of people would like to be so rich, that they could have servants make dinner, clean, and do all the things they don't want to do. That dream could never be a reality, because, everyone cant have servants. Just because things are a dream, does not make it a good idea.

So wanting a 2 bedroom apartment means you want slaves. ok, cool.

I certainly wouldn't want slaves. But a place to live with 2 bedrooms. Imagine that.

Look at it this way, if minimum wage goes up and people can now afford a place on their own, then that equals less government assistance.

 

[QuantumPion]

Can you name a policy that takes money from the poor and gives it to the wealthy? Just about every issue I see, is that the poor get an effective tax rate higher than the rich, because the rich have the means to hide their wealth.

And, if you are going to give something to a group that is a net positive, then it must come from another group. It must always be a tax, as it cannot come from nothing. That may be a desirable thing to do, but it will always be a tax.

Social security. Lower class people start working at 16-18 while middle class and upper class go to college for 4+ years. And people with middle and upper class backgrounds have longer life expectancy. So middle/upper class receive payouts longer while paying for fewer years. Lower class pay the tax for more total years and get less back.

Also, social security tax has a capped maximum and the payout depends solely on what your salary is when you retire. And you have to retire to get benefits. Lower class are more likely to work beyond retirement age to support themselves. Basically, SS taxes working lower and middle class to pay retirement income to upper middle class and the wealthy.

 

[realibrad]

So wanting a 2 bedroom apartment means you want slaves. ok, cool.

I certainly wouldn't want slaves. But a place to live with 2 bedrooms. Imagine that.

Look at it this way, if minimum wage goes up and people can now afford a place on their own, then that equals less government assistance.

So first off, fuck you for calling servants slaves. That is pretty damn demeaning. That is a horrible thing to say. All those public employees who are civil servants are actually slaves by your stupid belief. So congrats on your dumb ass view of the world.

If you think the minimum wage is a long term solution to decreasing the amount of money the government subsidizes to the poor, then you are wrong again. I am all for helping the poor. If it turned out to best help the poor by raising the minimum wage and increase social programs to cover all their needs, then I would vote to do that. The thing is, I don't believe that is the best way to help the poor.

God, your comment about servants being slaves...

 

[Subyman]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Sharing rooms with children is the norm for like 95% of the rest of the world.

Comparing something in America to the third world is easiest way to trivialize someone's argument for anything better.

 

[inachu]

So first off, fuck you for calling servants slaves. That is pretty damn demeaning. That is a horrible thing to say. All those public employees who are civil servants are actually slaves by your stupid belief. So congrats on your dumb ass view of the world.

If you think the minimum wage is a long term solution to decreasing the amount of money the government subsidizes to the poor, then you are wrong again. I am all for helping the poor. If it turned out to best help the poor by raising the minimum wage and increase social programs to cover all their needs, then I would vote to do that. The thing is, I don't believe that is the best way to help the poor.

God, your comment about servants being slaves...

Are you a contractor? If so then you are the slave master.
And if so you are a contractor then just by being a contractor you are passively supporting the voice by other contractors to let under age children work in the USA be they illegal or not. Slave indeed. USA is now a third world country thanks to the top greed to lower wages in USA.

You can not have a strong economy when middle class loses it pay scale because the top %1 say they cost too much.

Get rid of the middle class who make $40k-$230k and you destroy national security/military

 

[realibrad]

Social security. Lower class people start working at 16-18 while middle class and upper class go to college for 4+ years. And people with middle and upper class backgrounds have longer life expectancy. So middle/upper class receive payouts longer while paying for fewer years. Lower class pay the tax for more total years and get less back.

Also, social security tax has a capped maximum and the payout depends solely on what your salary is when you retire. And you have to retire to get benefits. Lower class are more likely to work beyond retirement age to support themselves. Basically, SS taxes working lower and middle class to pay retirement income to upper middle class and the wealthy.

I understand your point, but you will need to show what effectively happens. I would bet that those that are middle class, actually put more money into the system than poor.

The point of my comment, was that trying to tax the rich to pay for the poor is very very difficult to impossible. Because the wealthy can hide their wealth, they simply do and you end up not getting more money from them. Money does not directly go to the rich, but I agree that it is a subsidy and that is the problem. In our attempt to help the poor, but subsidizing education, we have effectively subsidized the middle and upper income groups.

We can help the poor a lot more if we stop trying to "help" them with the policies we currently have.

 

[inachu]

Comparing something in America to the third world is easiest way to trivialize someone's argument for anything better.

Comparing America today in 2015 to be the mightiest Nation in the world is like saying the local bum on the street is wearing golden underwear.

 

[realibrad]

Are you a contractor? If so then you are the salve master.
And if so you are a contractor then just by being a contractor you are passively supporting the voice by other contractors to let under age children work in the USA be they illegal or not. Slave indeed. USA is now a third world country thanks to the top greed to lower wages in USA.

It is sad/amazing that people have that view. The idea that currently people are anything close to what was done in slavery is sick. It implies that the life that slaves had was equal to those who are considered poor. If you offered the people you call slaves today a chance to be what was considered poor in the 1800's, you would get next to zero that accept. This isint to say that horrible shit does not happen to the poor. But this idea that the institution of slavery is anything close demeans the people and what they lived through in slavery. I am all for improving the conditions of the poor. Not simply because I have morals, but because it benefits me as well to have people not live in poverty when they could be productive.

 

[fskimospy]

Social security. Lower class people start working at 16-18 while middle class and upper class go to college for 4+ years. And people with middle and upper class backgrounds have longer life expectancy. So middle/upper class receive payouts longer while paying for fewer years. Lower class pay the tax for more total years and get less back.

Also, social security tax has a capped maximum and the payout depends solely on what your salary is when you retire. And you have to retire to get benefits. Lower class are more likely to work beyond retirement age to support themselves. Basically, SS taxes working lower and middle class to pay retirement income to upper middle class and the wealthy.

This has a lot of bad information in it.

First, once you reach full retirement age you can collect your full social security benefits regardless of how much you work, so that's just outright wrong. Second, although payments are based on your income, it is not a linear increase. You get a greater return vs. what you put in at lower income levels.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/12-15-progressivity-ss.pdf

The one issue in your post that is correct is that life expectancy is not the same across income levels and so in that case wealthier cohorts really do get bigger payouts than less well off ones. This is one of the reasons why raising the retirement age is a bad idea.

 

[ch33zw1z]

So first off, fuck you for calling servants slaves. That is pretty damn demeaning. That is a horrible thing to say. All those public employees who are civil servants are actually slaves by your stupid belief. So congrats on your dumb ass view of the world.

If you think the minimum wage is a long term solution to decreasing the amount of money the government subsidizes to the poor, then you are wrong again. I am all for helping the poor. If it turned out to best help the poor by raising the minimum wage and increase social programs to cover all their needs, then I would vote to do that. The thing is, I don't believe that is the best way to help the poor.

God, your comment about servants being slaves...

I don't believe you think we should help the poor. Even slaves got food and shelter. You really need to step back and take a breath.

Public employees can call themselves civil servants all they want. To me, they're not servants. They're there for the same reason as the rest of us, to get ahead with the best opportunities available to them. I should go with "Corporate Servant", really sounds better.

 

[ch33zw1z]

It is sad/amazing that people have that view. The idea that currently people are anything close to what was done in slavery is sick. It implies that the life that slaves had was equal to those who are considered poor. If you offered the people you call slaves today a chance to be what was considered poor in the 1800's, you would get next to zero that accept. This isint to say that horrible shit does not happen to the poor. But this idea that the institution of slavery is anything close demeans the people and what they lived through in slavery. I am all for improving the conditions of the poor. Not simply because I have morals, but because it benefits me as well to have people not live in poverty when they could be productive.

So you're saying that minimum wage people are non productive? how dare you. I MEAN, THE NERVE. My wife works a job where she makes minimum wage. She is a VERY productive person. She runs our house, works 20 hours and week, and still has time to be my wife. You have offended her and I. Fuck you.

Don't even get started on morals. Completely subjective. How many right wingers take the moral high road yet don't want to fund programs to help those in need. Quite a few, including a couple of my family members.

Fuck off with your moral superiority.

 

[inachu]

So you're saying that minimum wage people are non productive? how dare you. I MEAN, THE NERVE. My wife works a job where she makes minimum wage. She is a VERY productive person. She runs our house, works 20 hours and week, and still has time to be my wife. You have offended her and I. Fuck you.

Don't even get started on morals. Completely subjective. How many right wingers take the moral high road yet don't want to fund programs to help those in need. Quite a few, including a couple of my family members.

Fuck off with your moral superiority.

Ok in 10 years when Contractors lobby group fights and wins in congress to let 8 year old boys and girls work then do not complain when your under age daughter comes home pregnant from work.

Just keep smiling saying you are saving the company money and keep towing the bottom line to an even lower level.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Ok in 10 years when Contractors lobby group fights and wins in congress to let 8 year old boys and girls work then do not complain when your under age daughter comes home pregnant from work.

Just keep smiling saying you are saving the company money and keep towing the bottom line to an even lower level.

 

[tweaker2]

Meh, if trends continue the way they do, the difference between middle class wage and minimum wage is in the spelling.

 

[realibrad]

Public employees can call themselves civil servants all they want. To me, they're not servants. They're there for the same reason as the rest of us, to get ahead with the best opportunities available to them. I should go with "Corporate Servant", really sounds better.

Words have meanings. Just because you like to use it differently does not change its actual meaning. I used servants the correct way, and public employees are servants. If you want to try and argue that me saying people want to have servants is the same as saying people want to have slaves, you are empirically wrong on the grounds of the definitions of the words being used. If you were to pay a chef to be your personal cook, and gave him a salary of 100k, does that make him a slave?

So you're saying that minimum wage people are non productive? how dare you. I MEAN, THE NERVE. My wife works a job where she makes minimum wage. She is a VERY productive person. She runs our house, works 20 hours and week, and still has time to be my wife. You have offended her and I. Fuck you.

Don't even get started on morals. Completely subjective. How many right wingers take the moral high road yet don't want to fund programs to help those in need. Quite a few, including a couple of my family members.

Fuck off with your moral superiority.

Wages are not arbitrary. Again, you are trying to change the definitions of words. Someone being productive means they are producing. In a capitalist system, those who make more money, have been more productive. Just because your wife has a job, and works does not make her activity productive. Time spent does not equal productivity.

If we were to increase the utility of the poor, they could produce more, and command a higher income. For some, its possible that they cannot have their utility increased. This could be the disabled or for any other number of reasons. As a humane person, I am all for the state taking care of them. What that might mean is quite complex. But, like I said, wages are not arbitrary. If someone is going to make more money, it needs to be because they have increased their utility. If wages were arbitrary, then why not pay everyone wages that would make everyone rich? If a poor person was equal to a rich person in skills, then why is the poor person poor?

In the argument about the people making minimum wage being equal to slaves, I do have the moral high ground. Explain to me how being poor today is even close to being a slave.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Public Unions seem to negate your argument.

You are offensive.

 

[realibrad]

Public Unions seem to negate your argument.

You are offensive.

No, they do not. Public unions are a way to stop a free market, by limiting options thus driving up wages and prices. Unions also do not help the poor.

Also, care to better explain what you mean? That is a horrible way to state your point.

Capitalism.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Who has the best bene's? Who continued to receive pay increases during a recession? Unionized employees. Again, those public "servants" are out for the same thing as the rest of us, to get ahead with the best options available to them. And they complain the loudest when it doesn't go their way. Dat squeaky wheel dough..

Capitalism....salute.

 

[realibrad]

Who has the best bene's? Who continued to receive pay increases during a recession? Unionized employees. Again, those public "servants" are out for the same thing as the rest of us, to get ahead with the best options available to them. And they complain the loudest when it doesn't go their way.

Capitalism....salute.

As compared to what?

For every union you can give me, I can give a private firm that gives equal or better. Are you trying to say that those in the unions did better off than those not in the unions in the same industry?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Go.

 

[fskimospy]

As compared to what?

For every union you can give me, I can give a private firm that gives equal or better. Are you trying to say that those in the unions did better off than those not in the unions in the same industry?

Union pay and benefits are substantially higher than non-union employees within the same industry and job title.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

 

[DrPizza]

Social security. Lower class people start working at 16-18 while middle class and upper class go to college for 4+ years. And people with middle and upper class backgrounds have longer life expectancy. So middle/upper class receive payouts longer while paying for fewer years. Lower class pay the tax for more total years and get less back.

Also, social security tax has a capped maximum and the payout depends solely on what your salary is when you retire. And you have to retire to get benefits. Lower class are more likely to work beyond retirement age to support themselves. Basically, SS taxes working lower and middle class to pay retirement income to upper middle class and the wealthy.

Retirement at 65; those going into the work force at 18 work for 47 years. Those hitting college work for 43 years. That's less than a 10% difference in years worked. But the median salary for a 4 year graduate is $1108 (I found weekly data; it scales up the same) and the median salary for a high school graduate is 651. That's a lot more than a 10% difference. Thus, for both groups retiring by 65, the college graduates contributed significantly more money.

 

[inachu]

No, they do not. Public unions are a way to stop a free market, by limiting options thus driving up wages and prices. Unions also do not help the poor.

Also, care to better explain what you mean? That is a horrible way to state your point.

Capitalism.

Did you ever read that white or silver book called Extreme Capitalism
Or at least I think that is the title.
It is the idea to almost do away with the US GOVT completely.

Run everything off of profits. It was also the idea where getting the idea to remove minimum wage so that Bachman which she stated she can pay a female 25 cents and hour if need be. She touted it as a legit business decision and this is the type of people you are supporting to drive America down to 3rd world status.

It really is sick and disgusting

 

[inachu]

It isn't a joke as that is what they are fighting for next. I heard a Randstat employee mention as much to me.

 

[realibrad]

Union pay and benefits are substantially higher than non-union employees within the same industry and job title.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

I dont doubt that. I wanted to make sure he was not trying to say that unions do better outside of their industry, because his comment did not say much. Before I responded to that, I wanted to make sure I would not put words in his mouth. His comment about the poor being the same as a slave is pretty damn stupid, so I want to make sure I don't over assume about his stupidity.