Nothinv like owning undeveloped property, and finding someone built a million dollar home on it.

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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I've been following this for a week or so...I can't wait to see how it plays out.
 

Red Squirrel

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May 24, 2003
70,157
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www.anyf.ca
That's a rather interesting situation. If it's true that the property developer also got scammed (and they're not just saying this to try to get out of it) then hopefully they can make things right and also go after whoever scammed them.

I'd try to work out a deal where I get to keep the house. It's on my land, as far as I'm concerned, it's mine!
 
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brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
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if someone can pull off adverse possession for long enough without the owner noticing, the property legally becomes the person's who encroached on it

these laws were passed to reward squatters who were willing to move to the US frontier, enabling them to take over property from rich guys who bought land but never settled on it

it's usually anywhere between 5 and 21 years depending on the state

i've seen guys take sections of fields and pastures from other people because they were planting it for decades with no opposition from the actual owner
 

VirtualLarry

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Aug 25, 2001
56,571
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My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that you MUST file a "notice of adverse posession" with the county registrar, and then if that notice stands for whatever how many years, then the property becomes yours.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
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Whole story is weird
How did it get thru registry of deeds
How did it get a building permit
How did a lawyer not check as to whom owned the land

I assume multiple steps were skipped in the “Purchasing” of this land.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
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Same.

Couldn't help but think he should have waited until they were finished building the house.
You’d need the money to pay the increased taxes, now assuming you didn’t want the land you could finish it and sell it however I suspect a judge would side with the builder to at minimum cover his build costs.
If you’re keeping the land and do not want to pay extra taxes you really need to have the building removed.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Get your house off my lawn!

(That or charge them rent for the land, its common in mobile home parks).
Makes finding a buyer tough, this reduces the cost. Buying a home where you don’t own the land is typically a cash only transaction or basically like home improvement loan small fee/interest up front much larger interest a short time later.
Banks won’t finance these purchases because the owner is at the mercy of the landlord as to what it costs to rent it.
Maybe they could work some sort of it’s x amount for 50 years but then the question becomes how do you sell the damn place.
No bank is willingly going into such a complicated transaction. For businesses this is doable, for people it’s tough because we all die and someone inherits our land.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,907
14,308
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Makes finding a buyer tough, this reduces the cost. Buying a home where you don’t own the land is typically a cash only transaction or basically like home improvement loan small fee/interest up front much larger interest a short time later.
Banks won’t finance these purchases because the owner is at the mercy of the landlord as to what it costs to rent it.
Maybe they could work some sort of it’s x amount for 50 years but then the question becomes how do you sell the damn place.
No bank is willingly going into such a complicated transaction. For businesses this is doable, for people it’s tough because we all die and someone inherits our land.

We looked at a few houses at Lake Cushman...land is owned by Tacoma Power and leased long-term to homeowners. It's not an uncommon situation.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
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We looked at a few houses at Lake Cushman...land is owned by Tacoma Power and leased long-term to homeowners. It's not an uncommon situation.
That’s a corporation with a long term agreement. Corps are eternal, people are not.
I know in my State agreements like this will not have loans attached to them.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
12,046
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Off-the-record, the company people, Gina and Greg, most certainly knew Monelli.

They playing dumb because they got caught.

Adverse possession still requires a lawsuit. They skipped that lawsuit.

You wonder why people hold lawyers in contempt and real estate agents are negatively portrayed....this is why. However, the layperson fails to understand why they do such things; the reason is that there is good chance they can get away with it and that the process of rights assertion in common law and real estate matters practically requires an attorney. There is no accident or stupidity, it's calculated malevolence, but proving that "on the record" will be impossible.

Now, just because the guy is the rightful owner doesn't mean anything, because I have a hunch the "legal community" will make it as hard as possible for him to win the case, because there's plenty of money to be make in fees, recordings, depositions, discovery, finding a signature expert, paying said expert witness fees, etc. Lawyers charge hundreds per hour and there will be plenty of hours of logical argument, case research, etc.

Furthermore, when it comes to real property, the governments, via the courts, wills for owners to use the land "productively" and that's why adverse possession exists. For example, the following is how the Maryland Courts say about adverse possession:
B. Adverse Possession—Generally
We begin with an overview of the doctrine of adverse possession, which is central to the issues on appeal. Writing for this Court, Judge Adkins discussed the doctrine of adverse possession in Yourik v. Mallonee, 174 Md.App. at 422, 921 A.2d 869, stating:
“Adverse possession is a method whereby a person who was not the owner of property obtains a valid title to that property by the passage of time.” Md. Civ. Pattern Jury Instr. 2:1 (MPJI–Civ.). “A number of policy justifications for the doctrine of adverse possession have been advanced.” Herbert T. Tiffany & Basil Jones, Tiffany Real Property, Neighbor § 6:2 (1975, through Sept. 2006).... Most commonly, “courts justify the existence and application of adverse possession” for one or more of the following reasons:
First, there is a societal interest in “quieting” title to property by cutting off old claims. Second, there is a desire to punish true owners of land who neglect to assert their proprietary rights. Third, there is a need to protect the reliance interests of either the adverse possessor or others dealing with the adverse possessor that are justifiably based on the status quo. Last, an efficiency rationale, asserting a goal of promoting land development, seeks to reward those who will use land and cause it to be productive.
Hillsmere Shores Improvement Ass'n, Inc. v. Singleton, 182 Md. App. 667, 691, 959 A.2d 130, 144 (2008)

Mr. Kenisberg's age might have factored into the decision to commit fraud. He completed his residency at Hopkins in 1982; he'd have been in his 30s then and in his 70s now. So if he drops dead, the case (mostly) dies too or his heirs have to get on board.

The totality of circumstances show that is an indirect de fact method for the government "fine" someone for not putting land to use without officially fining the owner. Attorneys are officially "officers of the court" in their Code books even if they are privately employed.


If someone wants to make easy on themselves for land they want to possess(the legal definition, not the colloquial), get a survey and build a fence(meaning you need to spend $$$$) against predators like a neighbor or in this case, corrupt attorneys and real estate pros.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
12,046
2,763
136
My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that you MUST file a "notice of adverse posession" with the county registrar, and then if that notice stands for whatever how many years, then the property becomes yours.
Depends on the state. Maryland doesn't require notice, but it must be "actual, open, notorious, exclusive, hostile, under claim of title or ownership, and continuous or uninterrupted. Hillsmere Shores Improvement Ass'n, Inc. v. Singleton, 182 Md. App. 667, 959 A.2d 130 (2008)"
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
12,046
2,763
136
Whole story is weird
How did it get thru registry of deeds
How did it get a building permit
How did a lawyer not check as to whom owned the land

I assume multiple steps were skipped in the “Purchasing” of this land.
Local governments want money and a developed property=taxes and other revenues like permit fees, fines from notices of violation, etc. Government IS a business; it's just that nobody ever bothered reading mundane things like a fiscal report. Assets, liability, equity....

The lawyer like got friends in high places who let him do his thing.
 

WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,849
807
136
Off-the-record, the company people, Gina and Greg, most certainly knew Monelli.

They playing dumb because they got caught.

Adverse possession still requires a lawsuit. They skipped that lawsuit.

You wonder why people hold lawyers in contempt and real estate agents are negatively portrayed....this is why. However, the layperson fails to understand why they do such things; the reason is that there is good chance they can get away with it and that the process of rights assertion in common law and real estate matters practically requires an attorney. There is no accident or stupidity, it's calculated malevolence, but proving that "on the record" will be impossible.

Now, just because the guy is the rightful owner doesn't mean anything, because I have a hunch the "legal community" will make it as hard as possible for him to win the case, because there's plenty of money to be make in fees, recordings, depositions, discovery, finding a signature expert, paying said expert witness fees, etc. Lawyers charge hundreds per hour and there will be plenty of hours of logical argument, case research, etc.

Furthermore, when it comes to real property, the governments, via the courts, wills for owners to use the land "productively" and that's why adverse possession exists. For example, the following is how the Maryland Courts say about adverse possession:


Mr. Kenisberg's age might have factored into the decision to commit fraud. He completed his residency at Hopkins in 1982; he'd have been in his 30s then and in his 70s now. So if he drops dead, the case (mostly) dies too or his heirs have to get on board.

The totality of circumstances show that is an indirect de fact method for the government "fine" someone for not putting land to use without officially fining the owner. Attorneys are officially "officers of the court" in their Code books even if they are privately employed.


If someone wants to make easy on themselves for land they want to possess(the legal definition, not the colloquial), get a survey and build a fence(meaning you need to spend $$$$) against predators like a neighbor or in this case, corrupt attorneys and real estate pros.
You need to re-read the article. Someone impersonating the owner sold them the property. Not the lawyer. The money was wired to South Africa.
There is no government conspiracy here, and he will get his property back. I doubt he'll get $2 mill in damages though.

Follow up:

The developers have already vacated the property, and agreed to return it to it's previous state. In a filing this week in the lawsuit, 51 Sky Top Partners said it agrees that Kenigsberg is the rightful owner of the land and that they will shortly file a property record correcting the apparently fraudulent sale.

However, the layperson fails to understand

This cracks me up, YOU are a layperson.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
12,046
2,763
136
You need to re-read the article. Someone impersonating the owner sold them the property. Not the lawyer. The money was wired to South Africa.
There is no government conspiracy here, and he will get his property back. I doubt he'll get $2 mill in damages though.

Follow up:

The developers have already vacated the property, and agreed to return it to it's previous state. In a filing this week in the lawsuit, 51 Sky Top Partners said it agrees that Kenigsberg is the rightful owner of the land and that they will shortly file a property record correcting the apparently fraudulent sale.



This cracks me up, YOU are a layperson.
Negligence and due diligence are concepts foreign to you but not me.

That's the difference between amateur and clueless. The difference between never played football and JV high school football.

A professional attorney isn't going to be simply fooled like the unlearned. Bare minimum, there's a check for ID. Check of property records in South Africa. Even rudimentary things like public records search, Truthfinder, etc. And there's... google. A search for the named owner, immediately puts forth his place of business and phone. Lawyer could have called him up to confirm. 1691284443389.png

This particular attorney has advertises services both personal injury and real property law; and "primarily real estate closings". Surely, the unknown imposter would have had a vehicle as well, and thus registration and VINs to look up. 1691284778396.png

There is also a notary to witness the execution of the deed. Therefore, the imposter should have been seen, either physically or remotely if the notary was doing the job according to the rules set forth in code of professional conduct.

What you don't know you're doing, is taking the word of two professional businessmen at face value. Here's the thing about businessmen...they have been trained that full honesty is detrimental to business compared to "saying whatever is prudent regardless of the actual facts".

I do have a question? Do you live in a complete, skeptical-free mindset for every communication that enter your head? Or in other words, take everything at face value? You've never heard the words prima facie nor the concept and you show plenty of hubris that you will NEVER grasp it.

Furthermore, if there is a fourth, then the complaint in court would name such a "John Doe" in said complaint, and likely a line about investigating his whereabouts and identity so that the court can obtain jurisdiction over him. Now, the complaint could be amended in the future, but the omission notable. The defendants also can cross-claim said imposter for at least one tort.

Don't' try to portray your gullibility as something intellectually superior to actual understanding of the system; it only exists to make yourself feel morally superior. Unlike your brain, the courts do utilize the "Should have known" principle when making their adjudications.
 

WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,849
807
136
I do have a question? Do you live in a complete, skeptical-free mindset for every communication that enter your head? Or in other words, take everything at face value? You've never heard the words prima facie nor the concept and you show plenty of hubris that you will NEVER grasp it.

I'm probably the most skeptical person you ever met. But that doesn't mean I think everyone is out to get me.

You're an idiot, who believes everything is some sort of conspiracy. You are not a lawyer, but try to convince everyone you know the law.

Ever work for a land title company? I have.

Have you ever had a job at all, other than sponging off your mother?
 
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