Not quite as powerful as i would like

kgokal

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Jul 20, 2004
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So for xmas i finaly got my HK AVR-254, rated at 50W RMS.... to match
my Polk RM6750B's rated at 100W Peak, 80W RMS...

The sub is 50W RMS, 100W max, so i added a spare 100W max sub to boost base.

I thought it sounded pretty good, and pretty deep lows...


THen i got to my sisters place, and they have Polk RM7*** cant remember exactly.
and a Onkyo receiver rated at 75W Max, and the sub is pushing close to 250W MAX!


Man, they played "Dark Knight" and the first explosion when the bus ran into bank!

ZOMG! WHAT AM I MISSING HERE! It was soo deep and vibrating everything...
The sounds were pristine, and crystal clear...

some other details, we both have pre-wired rooms...
 

vi edit

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I wouldn't look into ratings much. Manf can really fudge numbers. I'm guessing it's all in the sub. A dinky little 8" sub in shoebox with a 50w amp simply isn't going to move much air. Comparing that to a 12" sub in a larger cabinet is like comparing a Civic to a Corvette.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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Is this the set?

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Aud...r-System/dp/B000WGJX5A

There are a few reasons why things might have sounded so different. A few that come to my mind right away

- Room size / effect...
The room a system is in can have a HUGE effect on what the system sounds like. For example, if you were to put your little sub in a college dorm room, it might to pretty well. Put it in a 12'x15' room with openings to other areas and it's going to sound extremely weak.
The same thing happens with speaker distances. The intensity of sound coming from your speakers reduces as a square of distance. If their room was smaller, the system would have to work a lot less to get high SPL easily.

- Sub placement
You're running dual subs - this can be great or a curse depending on how you set it up. If you set it up well, they should reinforce once another and even out the response. If it's not set up well, you might end up having them canceling out the output of the other sub. Placement in general also has a lot to do with subwoofer performance (tips in the sticky thread)

- Volume of playback
I don't know if you were listening louder over at the other place than you usually do. Louder sounds better. I'm not sure if you're implying by your description that when you turn your system up that it can't go as loud or if it just doesn't sound as good when it does.

- Calibration of system
There are a lot of variables here... their subwoofer gain could be up a lot higher than yours and they might have an equalizer setting on their onkyo set to exaggerate upper frequencies that might make things sound more clear? The newer Onkyo receivers have audyssey room equalization built in that would help clear things up and even out speaker response.


Those are all setting type things rather than the equipment itself necessarily.

You seem to be focusing on wattage a lot as to why things sounded different. This could come into play assuming that you were pushing both systems really high and those ratings were accurate, but that's probably not a huge factor here. The HK's wattage rating is more reliable that the Onkyo's and they likely have very similar actual output. Even if they are totally accurate, the difference in max sound output from 50watts to 75watts is a very small 2dB assuming the rest stays constant.
A bigger factor for speaker output doing what you want it to do (loud and clean) is speaker size. Small satellite/sub systems like this have a hard time pushing the amount of air that you need them to in order to fill a room with sound. If you want a really powerful cinematic movie experience, your front three speakers need to sensitive enough and have enough surface area to push enough air with your amplifier power to give you the sound you want. The Polk systems you guys both appear to have are systems that might work well in small rooms if you have to make size compromizes of the speakers. In a medium to larger room, you'll want larger speakers for better sound.

(If it wasn't clear above, I think the output of your system's speakers has more to do with the speakers themselves than the HK)

As for the subwoofer, this is probably a case of just having not enough sub to fill your space. The sub that came with your system (and likely the spare other sub) just won't play low enough to get the deep rumbling that you can get with a "real" sub. Without knowing exactly what sub they had, it's hard to say what you're up against, but honestly that's probably a weak sub as well. If you want an intense bass experience, you're going to need to buy a sub that matches the needs of your listening room. For medium sized rooms, this could probably be accomplished with a ~$400 sub (something from Elemental Designs, SVS, HSU, etc.)

If your main concern is subwoofer output, this is likely where you want to spend money if calibration and setup of your existing subs still doesn't solve the issue.
 

Noubourne

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Dec 15, 2003
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I agree with the previous comment that RMS and wattage ratings aren't going to tell you squat.

Room accoustics will have a massive impact on the sound of your system. Having a receiver with some sort of room EQ is key - and you both have that. More reflective surfaces are likely to make things sound brighter - as higher frequencies get reflected around.

That said, a difference in speaker models can make a big difference too. However, looking at the RM series from POLK - they seem to use similar drivers and tweeters, so the difference in series probably isn't the cause.

HK amps tend to be described as "warm" by some people, which typically means that the highs aren't as bright. If you like bright highs, then I doubt you'd get anyone recommending the Harmon Kardon receiver. If you want it brighter and the room isn't the cause of your issues, then you may look to a brighter set of speakers - like Klipsch.

As for the bass, well, different subs will have a massive impact on your system's performance.

Assuming you're both using a similar subwoofer from POLK's RM series line, I would venture to say it isn't the sub itself causing the difference - and again I would point to the room.

If they corner-load their sub and you stick yours smack-dab in the middle of two walls, then they'll get massive (probably muddy overloaded - but massive) bass sounds in their room, and you'll get massive cancellation. If they have an enclosed room and you have a kitchen off one side and a hallway off another and a 20 foot ceiling, then they'll get pressurization, and you'll have nothing.

Given what you've described, I would want to see a draft of both of your room layouts, along with some rough measurements.

A little Polk sub like those that come with the systems you mention is probably going to seem like a good solution in a 1500 cu ft room, but it won't have any capacity for larger spaces. Those are essentially bottom-line subs - and most can't really be called subwoofers - needing good rooms to even approach 20hz.

 

kgokal

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Jul 20, 2004
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YoYo,
thats not the set, but its pretty similar. I've always thought size matter, speakers that is. But in this specific instance i guess i just forgot to incorporate it.
Yes, the satelites are significantly bigger, but the subs are both 8", my dual-setup and sisters setup. But man that bass was soo awesome...

I guess i need to be in market for a hefty subwoofer.

All in all both rooms are same size, although sisters placement is not quite achievable with my floor plan.

My pre-wire limited my speaker mounts, which limited my speaker sizes. So "C'est La Vie"

Thanks for tips!
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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Thanks for the update.

When you said originally "The sounds were pristine, and crystal clear..." I assumed this was referring to the speakers. Was that referring to the subwoofer's bass output still?

If this is all focused on the bass, I would recommend first checking your receiver's settings to make sure you have the crossover set up correctly and the speakers set to small.

How did you incorporate two subs into the system? Did you just hook up a y-splitter? Did you try to match the output of both subs with their individual gain controls? How are they placed in the room? Did you make phase adjustments on them?

It would probably be easiest to just co-locate them in a front corner of the room for ease of setup if you don't want to do a ton of experimentation here. It took me many hours to get my dual subwoofers set up how I wanted them in terms of gain, phase, placement, etc.

If you were able to get the bass experience you wanted from their 8" sub, I'd say that it makes sense to make sure yours are set up well first before you throw more money at the problem (although it would definitely bring a whole new level of performance to your system with a quality subwoofer). I don't know what kind of budget you're willing to throw at this problem to improve things.
 

kgokal

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Its actually these: Polk Audio RM7200 - Discontinued :(

As far as setup, i am referring to overall sound quality and impression, It just blew me away in every aspect, highs, mids, lows...
The AVR-254 comes with a microphone for automatically configure both speaker size, range, power, timing and frequency.
Its pretty cool and i thought i wouldn't have to mess with cross-overs. So set, as directed, both subs to Highest frequency and mid-gain.
 

Noubourne

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For bass, I agree that you should verify your EZset EQ calibration settings to verify that bass management isn't causing your system to sound poorly.

After that, the key thing to look at is placement. How did you determine where to place the subwoofer?

If you didn't use the crawl test, you're basically flying blind. I have an MFW-15 subwoofer. It's huge and it can put out ridiculous bass. If I put it in the right spot, I can make it so that it is practically inaudible, by creating a symmetrical positioning between walls that causes massive cancellation. In this position, I can turn the gain up as high as I want on the sub and crank the receiver SW level, and never hear a thing. Placed in the right spot with the gain below 50%, it makes your rib cage shake. Really truly breathtaking.

Placement is absolutely critical for subs.
 

Noubourne

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Also though, are you comparing the $200 RM6750B to the $1500 RM7200?

Because yes, for $1000 more, there will be a difference in both clarity and output!!!
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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What else is going on besides what we can see? Is that open in the back to another room? What's on the right side there?

If you only have a handful of possibilities, you should just try them out and see what works.

Are the speakers really up that high at the ceiling? In-wall wiring really bugs me when they set it up poorly.
 

kgokal

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Yeah, rear of living room faces dining room, Right side had half-wall.

Yeah, pre-wired are in ceiling, so i have mounts for speakers.
Its not ideal, but works for room.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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Were you at least able to aim the speakers down toward the listening position?
 

kgokal

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Oh yeah, the mounts are pretty articulate...
I have no complaints except for sub positioning.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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Ok, well section 3.1 of the sticky thread has info on sub placement as well as some external links to other resources (if I'm remembering correctly)
 

Rubycon

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If rumbling lows tickles your fancy you don't want a polk subwoofer.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

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krotchy

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Id recommend the BIC H-100 Sub if you want something explosive in the $200 range. It can be found on ebay for about 250 or so. I have one and I have never turned it past 3/10 on its gain knob because it makes my rafters shake in my condo.
 

Rio Rebel

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Originally posted by: krotchy
Id recommend the BIC H-100 Sub if you want something explosive in the $200 range. It can be found on ebay for about 250 or so. I have one and I have never turned it past 3/10 on its gain knob because it makes my rafters shake in my condo.

Second on the H-100. I've got one and have never wished for more.
 

Noubourne

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I have also heard good things about Dayton subs designed by Dr. Hsu from SVS.

If you do have two subs in the green and purple boxes today, then it does look ripe for cancellation. Try just one - and use the H/K calibration. I believe H/K will set the speaker "distances" - which means it should successfully handle the phase so that you aren't getting cancellation between speakers in your room.

As a wild guess, I would say try the green box for placement, but to be honest, with that room open on a full wall and another half - you are basically adding those extra rooms to the job that your sub needs to do to create pressurization, and that amount of space is probably way beyond what the Polk will give you. You can still probably get decent improvement from better placement, but you should try calculating the cubic footage of all the areas connected to your listening space that are not sealed off to determine how much air your sub needs to push. That will help you to figure out how capable of a sub you need for that space.

You said your room is the "same size" as your sister's. Does she have open walls on two sides of her room as well, or is her room more enclosed? If she has a more enclosed room with only one doorway or maybe a hall, then even with the same equipment she'll get better results due to having her subwoofer isolated from extra open air spaces. Basically, you put your sub in a sealed room, and you'll get drastically different results. That's ok though. That's why they make big subs ;)