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Not Enough People Carrying Guns in El Paso, Sheriff Says

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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
The article is full of shit. El Paso county in no where near the top in population, and their is no way for the reporter to have access to info on how many CHL's there are. CHL #s are not accessible to the public. Plus according to the 06 census, El Paso Count had around 725K people. Dallas County has close to 2.5 million.

Though I agree that we need more people with CHL's.
bzzzzt wrong

Texas DPS link with Statistical and Geographic information
Was the Sheriff saying they had the most per capita? Because Dallas, Tarrant and Harris counties rule the roost in most issued.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

I find it interesting that all the anti-gunners have yet to take on my stance. Tables turn whenever a victim is a gun advocate, huh?

You won't hurt my feelings.

edit: my first post was made when the argument moved a little off topic.
It's probably because your post is simply an anecdote. There's really no arguing with someone's personal story because 1.) None of us are in your situation and 2.) anecdotes are near useless as evidence to support or deny a public policy position.
So my opinion is not arguable because I've had a personal experience with it... but if I was speaking in terms of generalities it's capable of being argued?

I put in there arguable point and no one took me on it.

1) Banning guns would have just taken the gun out of my mom's hand ... he murderer would have still had his gun

I think it's that it's much harder to argue a point when it is invalidated by someones personal experience.

We're arguing in terms of generalities about peoples personal experiences here, I don't see why my take on this personal experience can't be debated.
I agree 100%. Anecdotes mean more to me than statistics in an argument over whether you live or die.

Besides, gun control advocates rely exclusively on anecdotes (ie. mass shootings.)
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I've made my view known many times on here about guns and I'll do it again. I've been a victim of a violent crime.

When I was 5 my mom was murdered, with a gun, by someone who was never caught. My mom did not own a gun and had no way of protecting herself, she was shot twice for no apparent reason. Best the detectives could ever figure is it was a gang related shooting, either for initiation or she was mistaken for someone else.

Point being, after that happened most people would think that my family would have been crazy anti-gun nuts afterwards. Quite the opposite. Every uncle, and even my grandmother got training, their CCL and a handgun. The day I turn 21 I will be starting the process for my CCL as well.

I will not be put in a place where I have no choice but to be a victim. Yes, the chances of cooperating and coming out alive may be pretty good... but apparently they weren't good enough for my mom.

Banning guns would have just taken the gun out of my mom's hand, who was a law abiding citizen and wouldn't have broken the law. The murderer would have still had his gun... because well, he has no care what the law is.
I find it interesting that all the anti-gunners have yet to take on my stance. Tables turn whenever a victim is a gun advocate, huh?

You won't hurt my feelings.

edit: my first post was made when the argument moved a little off topic.
An interesting anecdote (and I'm honestly sorry about your mom), but I think your overlooking the fact that (I assume) your mom COULD have owned a gun if she wanted to, just like the majority of people now do not have a gun in their home despite the fact that it would be legal for the vast majority of them to do so. Maybe they don't like guns, maybe they don't feel comfortable using them, maybe that can't afford them...whatever, but there is a large population of people who simply doesn't have a gun...and they aren't going to GET a gun no matter how much the laws change.

No expansion of gun rights is going to make them safer, in fact it seems likely they might end up less safe. Now maybe that's OK, it just seems like this is a factor that's always left out of gun rights discussions.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I've made my view known many times on here about guns and I'll do it again. I've been a victim of a violent crime.

When I was 5 my mom was murdered, with a gun, by someone who was never caught. My mom did not own a gun and had no way of protecting herself, she was shot twice for no apparent reason. Best the detectives could ever figure is it was a gang related shooting, either for initiation or she was mistaken for someone else.

Point being, after that happened most people would think that my family would have been crazy anti-gun nuts afterwards. Quite the opposite. Every uncle, and even my grandmother got training, their CCL and a handgun. The day I turn 21 I will be starting the process for my CCL as well.

I will not be put in a place where I have no choice but to be a victim. Yes, the chances of cooperating and coming out alive may be pretty good... but apparently they weren't good enough for my mom.

Banning guns would have just taken the gun out of my mom's hand, who was a law abiding citizen and wouldn't have broken the law. The murderer would have still had his gun... because well, he has no care what the law is.
I find it interesting that all the anti-gunners have yet to take on my stance. Tables turn whenever a victim is a gun advocate, huh?

You won't hurt my feelings.

edit: my first post was made when the argument moved a little off topic.
An interesting anecdote (and I'm honestly sorry about your mom), but I think your overlooking the fact that (I assume) your mom COULD have owned a gun if she wanted to, just like the majority of people now do not have a gun in their home despite the fact that it would be legal for the vast majority of them to do so. Maybe they don't like guns, maybe they don't feel comfortable using them, maybe that can't afford them...whatever, but there is a large population of people who simply doesn't have a gun...and they aren't going to GET a gun no matter how much the laws change.

No expansion of gun rights is going to make them safer, in fact it seems likely they might end up less safe. Now maybe that's OK, it just seems like this is a factor that's always left out of gun rights discussions.
I know literally dozens of people that never owned a gun before Texas passed their CHL law. Once people were allowed to carry guns, they become relevant to a lot more people. Educate people about gun safety and their rights, and just about anyone would become at least neutral on guns.

Every single rabidly anti-gun person I've ever met has just had a guteral fear of guns, with little to knowledge of their workings, regulations, etc. People are scared of what they don't know about. Like people who grew up in cultures without dogs: they're scared of dogs.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I've made my view known many times on here about guns and I'll do it again. I've been a victim of a violent crime.

When I was 5 my mom was murdered, with a gun, by someone who was never caught. My mom did not own a gun and had no way of protecting herself, she was shot twice for no apparent reason. Best the detectives could ever figure is it was a gang related shooting, either for initiation or she was mistaken for someone else.

Point being, after that happened most people would think that my family would have been crazy anti-gun nuts afterwards. Quite the opposite. Every uncle, and even my grandmother got training, their CCL and a handgun. The day I turn 21 I will be starting the process for my CCL as well.

I will not be put in a place where I have no choice but to be a victim. Yes, the chances of cooperating and coming out alive may be pretty good... but apparently they weren't good enough for my mom.

Banning guns would have just taken the gun out of my mom's hand, who was a law abiding citizen and wouldn't have broken the law. The murderer would have still had his gun... because well, he has no care what the law is.
I find it interesting that all the anti-gunners have yet to take on my stance. Tables turn whenever a victim is a gun advocate, huh?

You won't hurt my feelings.

edit: my first post was made when the argument moved a little off topic.
An interesting anecdote (and I'm honestly sorry about your mom), but I think your overlooking the fact that (I assume) your mom COULD have owned a gun if she wanted to, just like the majority of people now do not have a gun in their home despite the fact that it would be legal for the vast majority of them to do so. Maybe they don't like guns, maybe they don't feel comfortable using them, maybe that can't afford them...whatever, but there is a large population of people who simply doesn't have a gun...and they aren't going to GET a gun no matter how much the laws change.

No expansion of gun rights is going to make them safer, in fact it seems likely they might end up less safe. Now maybe that's OK, it just seems like this is a factor that's always left out of gun rights discussions.
I know literally dozens of people that never owned a gun before Texas passed their CHL law. Once people were allowed to carry guns, they become relevant to a lot more people. Educate people about gun safety and their rights, and just about anyone would become at least neutral on guns.

Every single rabidly anti-gun person I've ever met has just had a guteral fear of guns, with little to knowledge of their workings, regulations, etc. People are scared of what they don't know about. Like people who grew up in cultures without dogs: they're scared of dogs.
Maybe, but whatever laws you pass, you can't MAKE people become educated about guns...and the fact that gun culture is pretty obnoxious if you aren't part of gun culture in no way helps the situation.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I've made my view known many times on here about guns and I'll do it again. I've been a victim of a violent crime.

When I was 5 my mom was murdered, with a gun, by someone who was never caught. My mom did not own a gun and had no way of protecting herself, she was shot twice for no apparent reason. Best the detectives could ever figure is it was a gang related shooting, either for initiation or she was mistaken for someone else.

Point being, after that happened most people would think that my family would have been crazy anti-gun nuts afterwards. Quite the opposite. Every uncle, and even my grandmother got training, their CCL and a handgun. The day I turn 21 I will be starting the process for my CCL as well.

I will not be put in a place where I have no choice but to be a victim. Yes, the chances of cooperating and coming out alive may be pretty good... but apparently they weren't good enough for my mom.

Banning guns would have just taken the gun out of my mom's hand, who was a law abiding citizen and wouldn't have broken the law. The murderer would have still had his gun... because well, he has no care what the law is.
I find it interesting that all the anti-gunners have yet to take on my stance. Tables turn whenever a victim is a gun advocate, huh?

You won't hurt my feelings.

edit: my first post was made when the argument moved a little off topic.
An interesting anecdote (and I'm honestly sorry about your mom), but I think your overlooking the fact that (I assume) your mom COULD have owned a gun if she wanted to, just like the majority of people now do not have a gun in their home despite the fact that it would be legal for the vast majority of them to do so. Maybe they don't like guns, maybe they don't feel comfortable using them, maybe that can't afford them...whatever, but there is a large population of people who simply doesn't have a gun...and they aren't going to GET a gun no matter how much the laws change.

No expansion of gun rights is going to make them safer, in fact it seems likely they might end up less safe. Now maybe that's OK, it just seems like this is a factor that's always left out of gun rights discussions.
I know literally dozens of people that never owned a gun before Texas passed their CHL law. Once people were allowed to carry guns, they become relevant to a lot more people. Educate people about gun safety and their rights, and just about anyone would become at least neutral on guns.

Every single rabidly anti-gun person I've ever met has just had a guteral fear of guns, with little to knowledge of their workings, regulations, etc. People are scared of what they don't know about. Like people who grew up in cultures without dogs: they're scared of dogs.
Maybe, but whatever laws you pass, you can't MAKE people become educated about guns...and the fact that gun culture is pretty obnoxious if you aren't part of gun culture in no way helps the situation.
A strong, unitary Executive could compel firearms training. ;)

Seriously though, how many people without drivers licenses do you know that rail to have cars banned because they just know they're soooo dangerous, and when you get behind the wheel of one you just want to KILL KILL KILL?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Nebor, why do you even bother with someone so closed minded?
Are you talking about me? If so...you might want to actually pay closer attention to the things I'm saying and not try to fit me into whatever little ideological boxes you've constructed to simplify debate.

I'll help you out. I don't mind guns (in fact I'm going to get a gun one of these days), and I support the right to own and carry a gun and to defend yourself with or without a gun. But I also think that many of the pro-gun arguments are far from perfect, especially in the sense of actually convincing anyone who isn't a card carrying member of the NRA...and I'm perfectly willing to say so.
 

SilthDraeth

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2003
2,635
0
71
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JS80
Nebor, why do you even bother with someone so closed minded?
Are you talking about me? If so...you might want to actually pay closer attention to the things I'm saying and not try to fit me into whatever little ideological boxes you've constructed to simplify debate.

I'll help you out. I don't mind guns (in fact I'm going to get a gun one of these days), and I support the right to own and carry a gun and to defend yourself with or without a gun. But I also think that many of the pro-gun arguments are far from perfect, especially in the sense of actually convincing anyone who isn't a card carrying member of the NRA...and I'm perfectly willing to say so.
I hope JS80 wasn't directed at Rainsford. I am pro gun, pro kill whoever rapes, murders, molests, or harms my family. And nothing Rainsford said was anti anything. He was making a point that there are millions that can get guns legally and never do.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: JS80
Nebor, why do you even bother with someone so closed minded?
I wouldn't say Rainsford is close minded (he's not punkin, or Senseamp or something,) he just needs to hear rational arguments in favor of gun ownership. I understand what he means when he talks about the "gun guys" who make everyone else feel small and engage in all kinds of other macho BS. I promise you that as a gay guy on firearms websites, and in the shooting community, I'm not exactly beloved. But, online, and even moreso in real life, my viewpoints, lifestyle and position have given me the opportunity to convert literally hundreds of people to the "pro-gun" side of the fight, or at least get them off the anti-track.

Of course, then there's people who absolutely refuse to have anything to do with guns. They won't go to the shooting range because they're certain they'll be killed. You can point out that you're more likely to be struck by lightning twice, and they'll scream, "BUT IT'S FULL OF GUNS!" It's just plain, irrational fear, without any bit of understanding or curiosity. I think the gun guys call it hoplophobia.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
The article is full of shit. El Paso county in no where near the top in population, and their is no way for the reporter to have access to info on how many CHL's there are. CHL #s are not accessible to the public. Plus according to the 06 census, El Paso Count had around 725K people. Dallas County has close to 2.5 million.

Though I agree that we need more people with CHL's.
bzzzzt wrong

Texas DPS link with Statistical and Geographic information
Odd, I was told in my CHL class that the info was not available to the public.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
The article is full of shit. El Paso county in no where near the top in population, and their is no way for the reporter to have access to info on how many CHL's there are. CHL #s are not accessible to the public. Plus according to the 06 census, El Paso Count had around 725K people. Dallas County has close to 2.5 million.

Though I agree that we need more people with CHL's.
bzzzzt wrong

Texas DPS link with Statistical and Geographic information
Odd, I was told in my CHL class that the info was not available to the public.
Your individual status is not available on a master list. Someone can send a request to the DPS asking if YOU in particular are a CHL holder. In which case the DPS sends you a notification, and then let's them know.
 

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