• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Not Enough People Carrying Guns in El Paso, Sheriff Says

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
http://www.gazette.com/opinion...ml/view_wednesday.html

:( This is a terribly dissappointing problem. Hopefully the issue is resolved quickly.

Personally I think a big part of the problem is how classist the Texas CHL system is. It is the most expensive license in the country, at $140 initial cost. Add in a typical $100 class, and the cost of a handgun and (hopefully) a holster, and you've made the right to protect oneself only available to the rich.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
No interest in this? I know there are anti-concealed carry people on this forum.... I"m just not hearing them.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
106
Originally posted by: Nebor
No interest in this? I know there are anti-concealed carry people on this forum.... I"m just not hearing them.
I think you wore-out all the anti-gun people in the other thread Nebor.

Their costs seems about what I paid for my CCP here in NC.

You do have a point though. My license re-newal came up and I the wifey didn't money in the budget for it. Had to let it lapse :(

I don't feel like going through the process again either. Don't have the time now. :thumbsdown:

Fern
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,556
735
126
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,708
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,005
3,784
136
You know what they say about handguns... it's only a way to get to your rifle/shotgun.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
And then they'll die. As the cost of doing business rises (risk of death) people will exit the market (of robbing people) and turn towards other enterprises (likely property crime.)

What's your solution anyway? Give them what they want, no resistance at all?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
And then they'll die. As the cost of doing business rises (risk of death) people will exit the market (of robbing people) and turn towards other enterprises (likely property crime.)

What's your solution anyway? Give them what they want, no resistance at all?
Some will die, but more Civilians will die as well.

My solution: Start with not making a bad situation worse. There are other ways to lower crime, such as Economic opportunity. Work on the Positive changes, not the Negative. More guns is part of the Negative.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
And then they'll die. As the cost of doing business rises (risk of death) people will exit the market (of robbing people) and turn towards other enterprises (likely property crime.)

What's your solution anyway? Give them what they want, no resistance at all?
Some will die, but more Civilians will die as well.

My solution: Start with not making a bad situation worse. There are other ways to lower crime, such as Economic opportunity. Work on the Positive changes, not the Negative. More guns is part of the Negative.

no matter how much "economic opportunity" exists, someone will always need to get more money fast.

 
Dec 30, 2004
12,560
2
76
Wow. $500 for protecting your life is not "available only to the rich". Jeez.

Anyways, if you take a look at ALL THE OTHER FREAKING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE OUTLAWED GUNS YOU'LL SEE THEY'RE MUCH WORSE OFF NOW THAN BEFORE.

It's not hard. People that situationally would not be robbers are now situationally robbers because now that guns are outlawed, nobody except the bad guys has a gun.

Liberals. Gotta love em. So disconnected from reality.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,530
0
0
gun lovers

gotta love how disconnected they are from reality, and how easily they believe any of the talking points BS that the NRA spits out on a daily basis

$140 dollars for the 'initial' license - boo fricken hoo

Should we be handing them out in cracker jack boxes?

We have a great country, but we have the worst rate of gun-related violence of ANY modern country - make all the excuses you want, but it's a fact, one that you gun boys so often dismiss.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Wow. $500 for protecting your life is not "available only to the rich". Jeez.

Anyways, if you take a look at ALL THE OTHER FREAKING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE OUTLAWED GUNS YOU'LL SEE THEY'RE MUCH WORSE OFF NOW THAN BEFORE.

It's not hard. People that situationally would not be robbers are now situationally robbers because now that guns are outlawed, nobody except the bad guys has a gun.

Liberals. Gotta love em. So disconnected from reality.
Really? Haven't noticed. Too busy not worrying about getting shot I guess.

Seriously, have you seen Murder rates in comparison to those Countries?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
And then they'll die. As the cost of doing business rises (risk of death) people will exit the market (of robbing people) and turn towards other enterprises (likely property crime.)

What's your solution anyway? Give them what they want, no resistance at all?
Some will die, but more Civilians will die as well.

My solution: Start with not making a bad situation worse. There are other ways to lower crime, such as Economic opportunity. Work on the Positive changes, not the Negative. More guns is part of the Negative.
You're arguing as if this experiment hasn't already happened. Widespread concealed carry hasn't led to more violence, it's lead to less. The badguys don't know who's carrying and who's not. You're also making the leap that a robber is willing to become a murderer over a couple bucks, which most of the time is not true.

You basically said you have no solution. It absolutely blows me mind that if someone was holding you at knifepoint demanding your wallet, you would be thinking, "Geez, I sure am glad I don't have a gun, this situation could get BAD."
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: NeoV
gun lovers

gotta love how disconnected they are from reality, and how easily they believe any of the talking points BS that the NRA spits out on a daily basis

$140 dollars for the 'initial' license - boo fricken hoo

Should we be handing them out in cracker jack boxes?

We have a great country, but we have the worst rate of gun-related violence of ANY modern country - make all the excuses you want, but it's a fact, one that you gun boys so often dismiss.
In a lot of states, a license is $10. We're talking about a big difference. Basically those states subsidize the process by providing the background checks and fingerprinting for free.

Of course we have more gun-related violence. We have more guns. Total violence levels are on par with other anglo countries though.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,833
1
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Wow. $500 for protecting your life is not "available only to the rich". Jeez.

Anyways, if you take a look at ALL THE OTHER FREAKING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE OUTLAWED GUNS YOU'LL SEE THEY'RE MUCH WORSE OFF NOW THAN BEFORE.

It's not hard. People that situationally would not be robbers are now situationally robbers because now that guns are outlawed, nobody except the bad guys has a gun.

Liberals. Gotta love em. So disconnected from reality.
Which countries are those? AFAIK, every country in Western Europe has lower murder rates than the USA.

http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Wow. $500 for protecting your life is not "available only to the rich". Jeez.

Anyways, if you take a look at ALL THE OTHER FREAKING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE OUTLAWED GUNS YOU'LL SEE THEY'RE MUCH WORSE OFF NOW THAN BEFORE.

It's not hard. People that situationally would not be robbers are now situationally robbers because now that guns are outlawed, nobody except the bad guys has a gun.

Liberals. Gotta love em. So disconnected from reality.
Which countries are those? AFAIK, every country in Western Europe has lower murder rates than the USA.

http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html
Overall crime has risen. Violent crime in particular. They may not be dying as much, but they're getting mugged, beaten and raped more often than us.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,176
3,222
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: blackangst1
An armed society is a safe one. If I was a robber I wouldnt rob a store or a person who I suspected was armed.
If you were a Robber, you would Rob. If all are Armed, you just need to shoot first.
That's a fallacy - the equilibrium in that scenario would be mutually assured destruction (unless the clerk is the only person in the store)
No it wouldn't. The Robber would have the element of surprise. Unless, of course, everyone begins to greet Strangers always with guns drawn.
It goes like this:
Robber shoots victim
Nearby person shoots robber
-1 to the already small pool of robbers in the world
Some other robber says, "Hey did you hear what happened to Jimmy? Nuts to this, I'm gettin' a job at Wal-mart!"

There are far, far more many good people in the world than bad people. Give good people the ability to fend off bad people, and the good guys win.

But, you do have a point, when a robber knows someone is armed, they're just going to shoot first. That's why policemen are so often killed and robbed. Soldiers too. And gun shop owners.
Cops and Soldiers don't carry large amounts of Cash. The thought Robbers will just go away is nonsense, they'll merely change how they Rob.
Well crap. We should just send them our money through paypal then, since we have no hope of stopping them. :roll:

Of course it will change the way people will rob. They won't rob people anymore, so we'll have less violent crime. Probably more property crime, but that's better than people being victimized by violence without recourse.
You're living in a dream world if you think they'll just stop. They will just become more violent.
And then they'll die. As the cost of doing business rises (risk of death) people will exit the market (of robbing people) and turn towards other enterprises (likely property crime.)

What's your solution anyway? Give them what they want, no resistance at all?
Some will die, but more Civilians will die as well.

My solution: Start with not making a bad situation worse. There are other ways to lower crime, such as Economic opportunity. Work on the Positive changes, not the Negative. More guns is part of the Negative.
You're arguing as if this experiment hasn't already happened. Widespread concealed carry hasn't led to more violence, it's lead to less. The badguys don't know who's carrying and who's not. You're also making the leap that a robber is willing to become a murderer over a couple bucks, which most of the time is not true.

You basically said you have no solution. It absolutely blows me mind that if someone was holding you at knifepoint demanding your wallet, you would be thinking, "Geez, I sure am glad I don't have a gun, this situation could get BAD."
My wallet is not worth my Life. If i had a gun along with everyone else, the Robber would also have a Gun. My chances of survival would be greatly enhanced if neither of us had a Gun.

Your example of Gun ownership decreasing Crime is a false comparison. If a small enclave is Armed and a nearby area is not, certainly the Robber will travel a bit further to the unarmed. Arm everyone and that choice no longer exists.

I have offered an alternative. You are just too stuck on Arming everyone to give it any thought.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY