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Northwood Experience--disappointing!

S

sharkeeper

Lifer
I guess I was expecting too much!

Using the highly recommended MSI Ultra i845D chipset based mainboard with the Promise UDMA6 controller. CPU is a 1.8A P4. (Retail)

First off, after reading the manual (always RTFM, right! I should've done this BEFORE giving my $$$!) I notice that you can NOT use all three ram sockets with double sided memory! It's bad enough having to use "only" 1.5GB of RAM, but now I was kind of pissed knowing that I could only use two 512MB sticks since they are double sided. I'm not going to purchase three 512MB single sided memory sticks or two 1024MB double sided sticks since I stocked up on Infineon PC2100 CL2 ram (VERY good stuff!) last October at a good price!

Ok, so this is just "for the hell of it" so I said and put everything together and fired up the beast. I immediately go into the CMOS (first turn off that tacky fullscreen MSI logo!) and try overclocking. Since it seems like every Tom and his other brother regularly hit 2.4GHz with these Northwoods, I figure WTH? Let's try 133 FSB. No POST. Diagnostic LED on USB header (that's kind of cool) has two red on bottom and top green flash back and forth faster than a wig wag headlight flasher on York county mountie chasing one of the Hyabusa hillbillies from Lancaster! 🙂

I see the cpu core voltage is only reading 1.43 or so in CMOS! I override the default and jack it up as high as it will go...a lofty (NOT) 1.65 volts which yields about 1.58 or so indicated in CMOS. Usually, mainboards have MORE not less voltage. Still, no dice. After a few minutes of reboots and other messing around, I finally see that I can post and run (at least Memtest86) at 2.08 GHz. Hit escape to quit Memtest. Oops! Machine won't post, gotta let it reset and try again. I'm getting tired of this quickly.

Specifics: CPU temp indicated in BIOS NEVER over 40 degrees Centigrade. I even relaxed the memory timings and tried changing voltage. Perhaps the memory just won't work? I dunno. This same memory runs in a KR7A-133R at 140x12.5 (XP2000+ at 1800 real MHz) with all memory timings wide freakin' open.

Increasing the voltage seems to have no affect on stability or ability to POST at overclocked speeds.

I also noticed that the Promise BIOS is the "Light" version! :| WTF is up with these vendors crippling these controllers? Well at least it does allow mirroring the disks. (unlike the Asus A7V133 that I hated!)

I certainly do NOT want to go back to 1024MB AND only run at 1.8 GHz. I'm pretty sure an Athlon XP at 1.8 (real)GHz would just walk all over this cpu.

Finally, are there any P4 boards (excluding RDRAM) that can address 2048+ DDR memory?

Cheers!

 
Do you have the latest BIOS for your motherboard?

Since it seems like every Tom and his other brother regularly hit 2.4GHz with these Northwoods,

Overclocks are never guaranteed and it's quite possible that you might have scored yourself a dud.
 


<< Do you have the latest BIOS for your motherboard? >>



Whatever it was shipped with. Any sites like the Abit FAQ's on these boards? I guess I could go usenet hunting.



<< Overclocks are never guaranteed and it's quite possible that you might have scored yourself a dud. >>



Yep, seems to be my luck with every damn Intel CPU I've purchased. It seems like all the CPU's I purchase for my clients are better, but that's just my luck because they aren't mine.

I'm not bitching like it's broken or anything, I just guess I expected more than I bargained for. 🙂 I may load Windows XP on it and see how it performs. It's a cool running cpu compared to the Athlon. One thing I noticed is the numbers in Memtest86 seemed artificially high.

Cheers!

 
Time for a new motherboard. Go get yourself the Asus P4B266-C. Everyone is having success with this board. It has some more higher voltage options. 1.58v just might not be enough.
 


<< Finally, are there any P4 boards (excluding RDRAM) that can address 2048+ DDR memory? >>



Asus P4B266 series comes to mind. I think most o/c'ers, including myself, choose the P4B266-C. It supports up to 1.75v for NW cpu's, and 2GB of DDR memory. Since you have such terrible luck with Intel cpu's, you should have purchased a guaranteed o/c'er. I have had better success with the 1.6a's; in fact both of mine run 2.4 @ 1.7v stable. Don't give up yet!!!
 


<< Asus P4B266 series comes to mind. I think most o/c'ers, including myself, choose the P4B266-C. It supports up to 1.75v for NW cpu's, and 2GB of DDR memory. Since you have such terrible luck with Intel cpu's, you should have purchased a guaranteed o/c'er. I have had better success with the 1.6a's; in fact both of mine run 2.4 @ 1.7v stable. Don't give up yet!!! >>



I would need to buy a pair of 1GB Dimms to get 2GB, correct? Will Registered ECC work? I do have those!

1.7Volts is a hell of a lot more than I'm getting! That's what I've noticed is the cpu voltage is low, too low in fact. The CPU will run at 1.98 GHz with < 1.5V so it may be possible to get 2.4 with 1.7. Looks like I need to break out the soldering iron!

Cheers!
 


<< Will Registered ECC work? >>



The manual says "up to 2GB of unbuffered or non-ECC memory", so I would have to say NO. Registered memory is "buffered".
 
Ah shcitt! It figures! Is there any way to go with a P4 on the high end without resorting to RDRAM? I asked my supplier and he laughed when I asked for PC800 1GB modules but the price was no laughing matter! :Q

Ok, that pretty much settles it. I'll try a voltage modification to give me more flexibility.

Cheers!
 
Asus P4B266 series comes to mind. I think most o/c'ers, including myself, choose the P4B266-C. It supports up to 1.75v for NW cpu's, and 2GB of DDR memory. Since you have such terrible luck with Intel cpu's, you should have purchased a guaranteed o/c'er. I have had better success with the 1.6a's; in fact both of mine run 2.4 @ 1.7v stable. Don't give up yet!!!

Not trying to get off topic, but there was actually a BIOS released for the Asus P4B266 that allows up to 2.1 vcore. Ofcourse going that high is not recommended at all. May not work with the P4B266-C though. Sharkeeper, it definatly looks like your cpu just needs more juice. Fkloster(sp?) I think needed 1.65 to get his 1.8A to 2.4ghz.
 


<< get a mobo with Sis 645 chipset. 🙂 >>



The Abit SD7-533 looked very interesting. 3DGameman did a video review on it. Gotta love that memory tweaking capability.
 
I just built a P4 1.8A as my home webserver, with the Aopen AX4B Pro, aside from the board needing a flash to recognize the northwood processor its working like a champ. Haven't tried any overclocking doubt I will doesnt make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
 
God I hate Asus' P4b266. They choke the voltage level and then dont update the bios to free it :|

I need a new mobo. I guess non asus.
 


<< I just built a P4 1.8A as my home webserver, with the Aopen AX4B Pro, aside from the board needing a flash to recognize the northwood processor its working like a champ. Haven't tried any overclocking doubt I will doesnt make much difference in the grand scheme of things. >>



I wouldn't recommend overclocking a cpu in a server! Certainly, it wouldn't make a difference and if it would, you need far more than a few hundred MHz! I'm sure this 1.8 and mobo would work like a champ! It's just not quite what I expected.

I'll post progress as I see fit. I always load the OS first before ANY overclocking. (lesson learned a long time ago!) Then it will be time to play. I'll do some true (I do some very unusual things with my computer) head to head comparisons with my XP at the same Fz of 1800 MHz. I'm curious to see how the Northwood compared MHz to MHz to the Palomino with my proprietary work!

Cheers!
 
Just saw that link on modifying the chip itself with conductive paint! Good gawd! 1.85 volts! Isn't that too high? Methinks going over 1.75 will cause throttling especially if the cooling system isn't up to par.

If the default is 1.85 perhaps I could lower that in BIOS? I have plenty of defogger repair junk from unlocking XP's last year! Looks simple enough.

Cheers!
 
Tex, why would you want to use more than 1.75v?



<< I'll do some true (I do some very unusual things with my computer) head to head comparisons with my XP at the same Fz of 1800 MHz. I'm curious to see how the Northwood compared MHz to MHz to the Palomino with my proprietary work! >>



Your 1.8GHz XP will outperform the 1.8 NW (as you already know) by a fairly large margin. I would enjoy the side by side comparisons though. 😉
 
I like my Ultra 845 but I'm only running my 1.6a @ 2.14 at Default voltage and using SCSI instead of IDE RAID. The 3.2 ver of the BIOS (the latest) will fix the faulty temp readings
 
I read a review of the Ultra 845 and they said the BIOS allowed for voltage adjustment to 1.85. It sounds like they were testing a Willy though.

Are the temp readings off with the current (shipping) bios? The temps did like quite low, but these chips don't run that hot in the first place. The numbers seem to fluctuate more but the internal diode would tend to show this anyways.

On another note:

The dual snap mounting for the heatsink is very easy and effective! By the warp in the board I would say it's applying quite a force on the chip as well. If AMD made their chips this way (large heat spreader over die) they could use the same mount. I'm sure that even giants like the MC462 and PAL 8045 could be [safely] fastened to the chip thus avoiding the hassle of through screw mounting.

Cheers!
 
Whatever it was shipped with.

Unless the board is extremely new (ie released in the last two weeks) then there is a high chance that a newer BIOS version is available. Go to the manufacturer's website and browse around.

Also a word of caution - if you do get that voltage working be sure that you don't pump it higher than 1.65V because if you do you risk permanently damaging the processor.
 
I hate to say this, but your topic should read more like:

"MSI Ultra i845D Experience--disappointing!"

Sounds like you are having problems with the motherboard, and not the CPU. Maybe you should try another P4 board, such as the ABIT TH7-II for RAMBUS, or the ASUS P4S333 or Gigabyte 8SRX for DDR. Any of the three boards will overclock better than the 845 based boards. I really doubt this has anything to do with the Northwood.
 


<<

<< get a mobo with Sis 645 chipset. 🙂 >>

The Abit SD7-533 looked very interesting. 3DGameman did a video review on it. Gotta love that memory tweaking capability. >>



I agree with this statement...I have an Asus p4S333 mobo flashed with the P4S533 bios and it works flawlessly. I have to admit that the memory speed was not fast enough until I update the bios. BTW I am using Mushkin Highperformance PC 2700 512 mb 1 stick

Ausm
 
Update:

I did the trick on the site and it locks the voltage at 1.85V. HOWEVER, the actual voltage shown in the hardware monitor is around 1.71~1.76 fluctuating wildly.

This certainly did the trick, as the chip will post all the way to 2600MHz. I have it running at 134x18 right now and allowed it to run about 20 passes of Memtest86--no errors.

I'm posting from the machine currently. Windows XP installed without any problems. I almost loaded 4in1's! :Q It's just such a habit! 🙂

Some of the things I'm doing look slower than what I'm used to and that's not good. Just poking around in Windows and surfing (of course) shows absolutely no detectable difference between systems. Of course, this system isn't for that.

A couple of things (and I'm sure it's obviously mainboard related)...

The Promise "Lite" controller is a letdown since you cannot manually select stripe size. It also takes WAAAAY to long at bootup to detect the drives, etc. After that, there is a really long pause of nearly a MINUTE before the XP splash screen fades in. That just doesn't seem right. It feels like I'm watching a Dell bootup. 🙂

I'll have some side by side numbers and I'm not even bothering to run the P4 at 1.8GHz because I know it will be far slower since 2.41 GHz seems slower in some of these proprietary operations that I've been doing with my XP at 1.8 (real) GHz.

Cheers!
 


<< Ah shcitt! It figures! Is there any way to go with a P4 on the high end without resorting to RDRAM? I asked my supplier and he laughed when I asked for PC800 1GB modules but the price was no laughing matter! :Q >>



I have never seen a P4 DDR motherboard that could handle more than 2 GB of memory.

The RDRAM motherboards generally have 4 slots (thus you get 2 GB with 4x512MB RDRAM). For people needing more memory they use 8 slot motherboards (thus you get 4 GB with 8x512 MB RDRAM). Since a Windows computer cannot access the full 4 GB of memory, motherboard manufacturers have less reason to make anything that can hold more than 4 GB. Thus there is virtually no demand for 1 GB RDRAM modules since the 512MB ones can give more memory than Windows can access. However for that high end of a machine, you probably won't be running Windows...

Your computer purchase sounds a lot like mine - lots of memory and decent speed (however I went the dual Xeon route).



<< operations that I've been doing with my XP at 1.8 (real) GHz. >>


Where did you get your hands on a Athlon 2200+ XP? or is that an overclocked (non-real) GHz?



<< proprietary operations >>


With that amount of memory - I assume you are doing some intense calculations. People can be surprised at the performance varience you get between the Athlon and the P4 with different calculations. For example, so many people here say the Athlon is much better with floating point calculations - then look at the SPEC-FP numbers and the P4 dominates. It all depends on the branching of your operations. If the branches are predictable the P4 at 1.8 GHz will tie the Athlon XP at 1.8 GHz. If the branching is more random the XP will dominate at the same stock speed.
 
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