North Korea is walking away from Six Party talks

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
This is no way for a nation to act. Considering they won't ever give up their nuclear weapons I see no reason to continue these futile talks. Isolation also won't work because it'll lead to them helping rogue nations in the Middle East. The only thing I can think of would be to integrate into the world economy and squeeze them from there. Once a man has tasted wealth he cannot tolerate poverty again. Besides, they will have an interest in keeping the peace once they see it's benefits. This can be called a reward for bad behavior but unless someone has another idea short of war think this is the best way to go.

link

Angry N Korea quits nuclear talks
North Korea has vowed to walk out on international talks to end its nuclear programme, and said it would restore its disabled nuclear reactor.


The unusually strong statement follows criticism by the UN Security Council of its recent rocket launch, which critics say was a long-range missile test.

North Korea says its launch was part of a peaceful space programme, designed to put a satellite into orbit.

China and Russia have appealed for the North to return to negotiations.

China, Pyongyang's closest ally, called for "calm and restraint" from all sides.

A Foreign Ministry statement said that Beijing hoped "all sides will... continue to advance and push forward the six-party talks and the denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula".

Moscow expressed regret at the North's decision, while Japan said it "strongly urges" Pyongyang to return to the negotiating table.

Last week, Japan renewed unilateral economic sanctions against North Korea for another year because of its rocket launch.

'Unbearable insult'

The six-party talks, involving North and South Korea, China, Japan, Russia and the US, have seen many setbacks since they began more than five years ago.

North Korea now says it is walking out for good, after describing the UN action as an "unbearable insult".

The North Korean Foreign Ministry said the UN statement - condemning its rocket launch and tightening existing sanctions - infringed its sovereignty and "severely debases" its people.

The ministry said it would "strengthen its nuclear deterrent for its defence by all means".

The North also said that it would restore its partially disabled Yongbyon nuclear reactor - the fuel source for its 2006 atomic test.

Pyongyang partially dismantled the plant in 2008, as part of an international agreement which guaranteed it aid and diplomatic concessions in exchange for disabling its nuclear facilities.

The BBC's diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says this latest instalment of the North Korean drama has been seen by many analysts as a predictable attempt by Pyongyang to gain the attention of the new US administration.

How far the North Koreans are really willing to go in unpicking the current deal is not clear, he says.

With growing uncertainty about the internal political dynamics in Pyongyang, and a much tougher sounding leadership in South Korea, it may not be easy to get these talks back on track, our correspondent says.

International condemnation

Pyongyang's defiant response came shortly after the 15-member Security Council unanimously condemned the long-range rocket launch on 5 April.

The council also ordered the UN Sanctions Committee to begin enforcing both financial sanctions and an existing arms embargo imposed after the 2006 tests.

There had been hope that the unified statement could pave the way for a return to the talks, which have stalled over the inability to verify the shutdown of Yongbyon.

North Korea had previously threatened that any criticism of the rocket launch would cause it to walk away from the negotiating table.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,371
45,815
136
North Korea is one of the world's premier attention whores.

Sorry Kim, the rest of the world has real problems right now.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
KJI has to be one of the biggest drama queens on the planet.

OP, how do you suggest we integrate NK into the world economy? It's the proverbial "You can lead a horse to water, but..." problem. KJI wouldn't open his country to the world economy because then he couldn't keep his poor citizenry under his despotic thumb for long.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
They want nukes, so they will have to eat them...that is what I think will eventually be the situation. KJI has failed the basic guns v. butter debate...
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
KJI has to be one of the biggest drama queens on the planet.

OP, how do you suggest we integrate NK into the world economy? It's the proverbial "You can lead a horse to water, but..." problem. KJI wouldn't open his country to the world economy because then he couldn't keep his poor citizenry under his despotic thumb for long.

The same way we did with China and China isn't exactly a beacon of democracy. The Chinese and South Koreans already have companies in the North. We can expand this process. It'll be something that'll take time but I don't think they'd mind. It'll also soften them up during that time.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
KJI has to be one of the biggest drama queens on the planet.

OP, how do you suggest we integrate NK into the world economy? It's the proverbial "You can lead a horse to water, but..." problem. KJI wouldn't open his country to the world economy because then he couldn't keep his poor citizenry under his despotic thumb for long.

The same way we did with China and China isn't exactly a beacon of democracy. The Chinese and South Koreans already have companies in the North. We can expand this process. It'll be something that'll take time but I don't think they'd mind. It'll also soften them up during that time.
China's leaders didn't suffer from the 'I am a god, worship me' affliction that KJI has. I really don't see any real potential for change coming from NK until that nutcase kicks the bucket.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
KJI has to be one of the biggest drama queens on the planet.

OP, how do you suggest we integrate NK into the world economy? It's the proverbial "You can lead a horse to water, but..." problem. KJI wouldn't open his country to the world economy because then he couldn't keep his poor citizenry under his despotic thumb for long.

The same way we did with China and China isn't exactly a beacon of democracy. The Chinese and South Koreans already have companies in the North. We can expand this process. It'll be something that'll take time but I don't think they'd mind. It'll also soften them up during that time.
China's leaders didn't suffer from the 'I am a god, worship me' affliction that KJI has. I really don't see any real potential for change coming from NK until that nutcase kicks the bucket.

I think it'll be soon. Did you see the picks of him at his recent "re-election"? The guy looks like he's in his 80s and he's only 67. He looked nothing like this only a year ago.

Here's some pictures and videos:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor...ia-pacific/7991151.stm
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
NK continues to play its adversaries quite well, but then again they are so fvcking bad at this it's not that hard, because they are predictable and useless. Something needs to change. The current way to deal with NK has been not just useless, but entirely counterproductive, as now it has nukes.

When Kim goes, somebody else will pop up. His dad's death didn't really help the country, did it?

He looks haggard. It's too bad he'll be unlikely to see with his eyes the fall of his regime, a pleasure that at least Saddam got to embrace.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,129
748
126
after watching documentaries about the NK regime i think they are disgusting and horrifying. it's like a hell on earth. i wish there was an easy way to topple the regime and give NK to the south
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: evident
after watching documentaries about the NK regime i think they are disgusting and horrifying. it's like a hell on earth. i wish there was an easy way to topple the regime and give NK to the south

Is that documentary in English? Is it online?

EDIT: Don't forget the sheer terror Mao Zedong brought onto his own people in the 1960s and 1970s where over 10 million died. NK is nowhere near that.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Just ignore those idiots. Or nuke them. Whichever is more politically convenient.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,129
748
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: evident
after watching documentaries about the NK regime i think they are disgusting and horrifying. it's like a hell on earth. i wish there was an easy way to topple the regime and give NK to the south

Is that documentary in English? Is it online?

EDIT: Don't forget the sheer terror Mao Zedong brought onto his own people in the 1960s and 1970s where over 10 million died. NK is nowhere near that.

yes. it was like a 30-45 min documentary that i saw on google vids and it was produced by discovery channel. it started off with a guy who snuck into NK through the chinese border and it followed an orphan kid around. he was essentially a 5 yr old beggar. it went on to showed how he ended up this way (i think his parents were political prisoners) and then it showed what they do to other kids that are in his lot. it then showed day to day activities of regular NK citizens and how F'ed up everything is up there. really depressing, and i saw watched it on christmas eve too. I will look for it on google/vids youtube for you when i get to a home computer.


edit: i think this may be the name of the vid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...en_of_the_Secret_State
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Give china advance notice, preemptive strike the NK artillery pointed a Soul and stop all rice shipments. NK collapses, give NK's aid money to SK (shortly to be just "Korea") to help incorporate NK back into the country.

For best results time with Kim's death or serious illness, and be prepared for massive humanitarian operation to save as many NK civilians from starvation as possible.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,129
748
126
Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Give china advance notice, preemptive strike the NK artillery pointed a Soul and stop all rice shipments. NK collapses, give NK's aid money to SK (shortly to be just "Korea") to help incorporate NK back into the country.

For best results time with Kim's death or serious illness, and be prepared for massive humanitarian operation to save as many NK civilians from starvation as possible.

want to talk about timewarp? think about the mindfck NK civilians would have when they jumped into the 21'st century after being stuck in the 1950's all their life.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: evident
after watching documentaries about the NK regime i think they are disgusting and horrifying. it's like a hell on earth. i wish there was an easy way to topple the regime and give NK to the south

Is that documentary in English? Is it online?

EDIT: Don't forget the sheer terror Mao Zedong brought onto his own people in the 1960s and 1970s where over 10 million died. NK is nowhere near that.

China 1970, 830 million.
NK today 22.6 million.

Now I'd like to see your figure compared to NK put into percent form. Best to not confuse "can't" with "won't".
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
It is the Somolia pirates that is the problem. They have now taken center stage after the failed missle test.

NK wants to be in the spotlight.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
55,158
136
Originally posted by: Skoorb
NK continues to play its adversaries quite well, but then again they are so fvcking bad at this it's not that hard, because they are predictable and useless. Something needs to change. The current way to deal with NK has been not just useless, but entirely counterproductive, as now it has nukes.

When Kim goes, somebody else will pop up. His dad's death didn't really help the country, did it?

He looks haggard. It's too bad he'll be unlikely to see with his eyes the fall of his regime, a pleasure that at least Saddam got to embrace.

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Skoorb
NK continues to play its adversaries quite well, but then again they are so fvcking bad at this it's not that hard, because they are predictable and useless. Something needs to change. The current way to deal with NK has been not just useless, but entirely counterproductive, as now it has nukes.

When Kim goes, somebody else will pop up. His dad's death didn't really help the country, did it?

He looks haggard. It's too bad he'll be unlikely to see with his eyes the fall of his regime, a pleasure that at least Saddam got to embrace.

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?

Aren't you worried about them passing nuclear and missile technology to Syria and Iran?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Skoorb
NK continues to play its adversaries quite well, but then again they are so fvcking bad at this it's not that hard, because they are predictable and useless. Something needs to change. The current way to deal with NK has been not just useless, but entirely counterproductive, as now it has nukes.

When Kim goes, somebody else will pop up. His dad's death didn't really help the country, did it?

He looks haggard. It's too bad he'll be unlikely to see with his eyes the fall of his regime, a pleasure that at least Saddam got to embrace.

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?
The framework agreed to under Clinton actually didn't work very well at all. Superficially it may have appeared so but under the surface it was a different story:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/in...orthkorea/nuclear.html

Even as the nations were debating implementation of the Agreed Framework, North Korea, the United States argued, was breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of the pact. Within months of signing the framework, North Korea and Pakistan reportedly cut a deal to trade missile technology for Pakistan's uranium enrichment techniques ? the Agreed Framework had banned plutonium enrichment programs.

For more than three years, the North Koreans worked quietly on their uranium project while urging the United States to fully implement the Agreed Framework. The Clinton administration apparently learned of the secret program in late 1998 or early 1999, and by March 2000, President Clinton informed Congress he could no longer certify that "North Korea is not seeking to develop or acquire the capability to enrich uranium."

Allegedly Clinton even knew of NK's work on the project, according to the WaPo in '98. He simply pretended that not to know so he didn't have to acknowledge that his (actually Jimmy Carter's) framework afreement was a failure.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
8,568
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?

you mean the agreed framework where they promised not to work on plutonium bombs, and worked on uranium bombs instead?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: evident
after watching documentaries about the NK regime i think they are disgusting and horrifying. it's like a hell on earth. i wish there was an easy way to topple the regime and give NK to the south

Is that documentary in English? Is it online?

EDIT: Don't forget the sheer terror Mao Zedong brought onto his own people in the 1960s and 1970s where over 10 million died. NK is nowhere near that.

it really is horrible. It's like 1984 for real. Like really. I feel bad for anyone born into that.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

How are other soverign nations going to be stopped from entering NK ports?

China and SK are their biggest trading partners etc. I don't see how we can control those inland borders?

Seems to me what you advocate would require pretty much complete global cooperation to be effective.

Anyway, a blockade like that is considered an 'act of war', I doubt the world's politicians are eager to commit a provocative act like that. If NK were to retaliate the politicians could not claim to be blameless, they will have 'fired the first shot'.

Fern