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North Korea has their missile on the launch pad

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Feb 24, 2001
14,550
4
81
Wonder if this is using US GPS satellites for navigation.

There was a launch a few weeks ago, can't remember what country.

Our GPS satellites went out briefly during the launch...woops.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,123
24,691
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Seriously Pro-Jo, you don't think the reason the North Koreans could detect the fact that we shot down their missile with a laser is because they would see a big red Superman style eye beam shooting at it do you? They will be EXTENSIVELY monitoring this launch, and watching their missile be heated into oblivion by some mysterious force (with a US 747 just happening to be flying around near their airspace), you don't think they would figure it out?
Did you watch the video??

The laser has a range of several hundred miles. The 747 could fly in normal commercial air traffic routes and get the job done.

But I don't think this will happen since the system does not seem to be ready.
I know a lot about ABM lasers, much more than you know from your video. I've written several papers on the subject.

We don't know the exact time of the launch, and so we would have to have 747's toodling around in circles waiting for North Korea to do it's thing. Furthermore, even if the 747 somehow was sneaky enough to do its business, the North Koreans will be MONITORING THE LAUNCH. They will notice when we heat their missile to oblivion. The idea that we could destroy it without them knowing it was us is pretty silly.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,123
24,691
136
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Wonder if this is using US GPS satellites for navigation.

There was a launch a few weeks ago, can't remember what country.

Our GPS satellites went out briefly during the launch...woops.
Even if it is, the US turning off GPS could have catastrophic results worldwide for a whole host of different issues, civilian and military.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
The idea that we could destroy it without them knowing it was us is pretty silly.
Most of them are starving to death anyway, they are not entirely on the ball, so to speak.

No need to respond to that, btw :p
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Seriously Pro-Jo, you don't think the reason the North Koreans could detect the fact that we shot down their missile with a laser is because they would see a big red Superman style eye beam shooting at it do you? They will be EXTENSIVELY monitoring this launch, and watching their missile be heated into oblivion by some mysterious force (with a US 747 just happening to be flying around near their airspace), you don't think they would figure it out?
Did you watch the video??

The laser has a range of several hundred miles. The 747 could fly in normal commercial air traffic routes and get the job done.

But I don't think this will happen since the system does not seem to be ready.
I know a lot about ABM lasers, much more than you know from your video. I've written several papers on the subject.

We don't know the exact time of the launch, and so we would have to have 747's toodling around in circles waiting for North Korea to do it's thing. Furthermore, even if the 747 somehow was sneaky enough to do its business, the North Koreans will be MONITORING THE LAUNCH. They will notice when we heat their missile to oblivion. The idea that we could destroy it without them knowing it was us is pretty silly.
Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,220
26
91
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Sure North Korea is causing an incident by launching this missile, maybe it would have been better to say we would be ESCALATING an international incident without gaining much for ourselves and causing all sorts of problems. 'Any response' is most certainly NOT just a 'response', by the way. So if we bombed Pyongyang, we would just be 'responding'? Of course not.

This stuff isn't a game, guys. If we attacked other countries and went to war half as often as ATPN wanted to, the world would be a barren wasteland.
Im not saying we should go to war. But when people scream that we need to involve the UN in international issues, and nobody backs up the resolutions when we actually get them, what is the point?

A country that we are still technically in a state of war with was able to obtain nuclear weapon(s) because of diplomacy. They used the same "delay, delay, negotiate, lets have talks" crap that Iran is now perfecting.

North Korea is exactly what our missle defense is designed for. It is not going to stop a Russian or Chinese first strike.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
5
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Wonder if this is using US GPS satellites for navigation.

There was a launch a few weeks ago, can't remember what country.

Our GPS satellites went out briefly during the launch...woops.
Even if it is, the US turning off GPS could have catastrophic results worldwide for a whole host of different issues, civilian and military.
I think you are over stating the dangers of turning off the GPS system.

We will know when the missile is launched within a few seconds of it being launched. If we then turned off the GPS system for say 30 seconds that might be enough to ruin the launch.

And you never answered the question: If we can take the missile out without them ever knowing we did it would you do it?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
5
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
Exactly!!!!


We let the missile get high enough and far enough away from NK that they can't watch it with 100% accuracy and then we take it out. Using a laser that can't be see by the naked eye and can't be tracked via radar.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Wonder if this is using US GPS satellites for navigation.

There was a launch a few weeks ago, can't remember what country.

Our GPS satellites went out briefly during the launch...woops.
Even if it is, the US turning off GPS could have catastrophic results worldwide for a whole host of different issues, civilian and military.
I think you are over stating the dangers of turning off the GPS system.

We will know when the missile is launched within a few seconds of it being launched. If we then turned off the GPS system for say 30 seconds that might be enough to ruin the launch.

And you never answered the question: If we can take the missile out without them ever knowing we did it would you do it?
Not to mention the US has done it before (I think for a bit on 911) and that any life-critical system has to have backup for if GPS fails. No commercial airliner, despite heavy reliance on GPS, is blind without it because it would not be safe. The US government has always made clear, I believe, that they are in control of GPS and will shut it off without notice if they want to.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dphantom
Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
Exactly!!!!


We let the missile get high enough and far enough away from NK that they can't watch it with 100% accuracy and then we take it out. Using a laser that can't be see by the naked eye and can't be tracked via radar.
Surely when we talk about them tracking it we're talking about instrumentation on board the missile that real-time fires back via radio waves to the base. Height/eye contact wouldn't be meaningful.

 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
571
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
This would be a good field test for those laser equipped 747s we are building.

We might be able to take the missile out without them even knowing we did it.
That's HIGHLY unlikely. It amazes me how cavalier everyone here is about creating a major international incident. Yay, so we get to test our weapons and rattle our saber at North Korea. I haven't the slightest clue how that is worth it.
On the other hand, NK is creating just such an incident all by itself.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Problem is PJ, would it even matter if there was no evidence that the USA destroyed their missile? If there is a sudden catastrophic failure they'll probably blame the USA regardless just for the PR, I can already hear "The evil americans have destroyed our peaceful satellite launch, this is a unprovoked act of aggression". It'll also help keep their people in check telling them they are under attack from the rest of the world and their glorious leader will protect them.

Missile aside, problem with creating unneeded tensions with NK is that they have massive amounts of artillery and rockets pointed at Seoul with a population of over 10million. The only way to avoid massive civilian casualties is to launch a surprise preemptive strike to take out their artillery, otherwise Seoul will be leveled in the first few days of the war with hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian casualties.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,123
24,691
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dphantom
Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
Exactly!!!!


We let the missile get high enough and far enough away from NK that they can't watch it with 100% accuracy and then we take it out. Using a laser that can't be see by the naked eye and can't be tracked via radar.
Pro-Jo, you don't have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Like I said, it's not dependent on them seeing the red Superman eye laser.

As for your hypothetical question, you're basically asking if destroying North Korean property that is being used in violation of security council resolutions is inherently good. I guess so, but it's a worthless question to ask.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
5
0
Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Problem is PJ, would it even matter if there was no evidence that the USA destroyed their missile? If there is a sudden catastrophic failure they'll probably blame the USA regardless just for the PR, I can already hear "The evil americans have destroyed our peaceful satellite launch, this is a unprovoked act of aggression". It'll also help keep their people in check telling them they are under attack from the rest of the world and their glorious leader will protect them.

Missile aside, problem with creating unneeded tensions with NK is that they have massive amounts of artillery and rockets pointed at Seoul with a population of over 10million. The only way to avoid massive civilian casualties is to launch a surprise preemptive strike to take out their artillery, otherwise Seoul will be leveled in the first few days of the war with hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian casualties.
ummm last time they tried this type of launch it failed. Don't recall Seoul being destroyed in the aftermath, but perhaps I missed that story.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Wonder if this is using US GPS satellites for navigation.

There was a launch a few weeks ago, can't remember what country.

Our GPS satellites went out briefly during the launch...woops.
Even if it is, the US turning off GPS could have catastrophic results worldwide for a whole host of different issues, civilian and military.
Not really. There are any number of backups to GPS including good ol manual triangulation. Inconvenient and possibly costly from a monetary standpoint, yes. Catastrophic, hardly.

Besides, we don't really have to turn it off. We can simply change the parameters of the signal and reduce the accuracy by some amount to throw off a guidance package depending upon the sophistication of the onboard guidance. It could not be done with US, French, British or Russian missiles, but possibly with NK.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,123
24,691
136
Originally posted by: dphantom

Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
The papers were on ABM technology in general and they certainly aren't published works, they were undergrad papers. My point was that I've done a fair bit of reading on the subject, and that Pro-Jo is basing his idea for what we should do on a video from the History Channel or whatever.

Nobody knows if their instrumentation can detect internal heating vs. external heating obviously, but if I'm not mistaken we have external temperature sensors on our rockets. With that in mind it's not unreasonable to assume they have them as well, particularly for ones still in testing as the Taepodong-2 is.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
5
76
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
modelworks we need you for operation:frontline. We will parachute you into N. Korea with only a knife and a pack of cigarette. From there you will have to defeat a boss known as "solid snake". We only know his general location. i know you are up for the task. Make haste with our warmest regards.
I'm scared of heights. But I'm sure you are more than willing to take my place :)
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
5
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
This would be a good field test for those laser equipped 747s we are building.

We might be able to take the missile out without them even knowing we did it.
Or the laser beam equipped sharks !
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
5
76
I think the problem with this launch is that if the launch does work and then fails at a later stage, NK may still claim that someone did something. Either via some type of weapon defense or sabotage. Kim Jong isn't the most stable of people and may be looking for any reason to justify his actions.

I can see him telling his people, "you see , we tried to do a peaceful project and they wouldn't let us. We need to increase nuclear development so in the future we have something to make them fear us "
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
So are we running a book on how far it goes? I'll put £10 on 'it fizzes out or blows up on the launchpad' at 7-1 odds. Anyone want some of that?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,123
24,691
136
Originally posted by: Atheus
So are we running a book on how far it goes? I'll put £10 on 'it fizzes out or blows up on the launchpad' at 7-1 odds. Anyone want some of that?
7-1 odds? Hell yeah I do.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
5
76
Originally posted by: Atheus
So are we running a book on how far it goes? I'll put £10 on 'it fizzes out or blows up on the launchpad' at 7-1 odds. Anyone want some of that?
I'm in for $20 that it blows in the second stage.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Atheus
So are we running a book on how far it goes? I'll put £10 on 'it fizzes out or blows up on the launchpad' at 7-1 odds. Anyone want some of that?
7-1 odds? Hell yeah I do.
So you think it'll take off and fly straight? How far?
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: dphantom

Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
The papers were on ABM technology in general and they certainly aren't published works, they were undergrad papers. My point was that I've done a fair bit of reading on the subject, and that Pro-Jo is basing his idea for what we should do on a video from the History Channel or whatever.

Nobody knows if their instrumentation can detect internal heating vs. external heating obviously, but if I'm not mistaken we have external temperature sensors on our rockets. With that in mind it's not unreasonable to assume they have them as well, particularly for ones still in testing as the Taepodong-2 is.
Well, that explains things. Nevermind, I have access to sources better than an undergrad paper.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: dphantom

Having been in AFSPC and a missile operator, I would love to see some of your papers. Links to where they are published? Or I can pm you an email address.

As for NK monitoring their missile, sure, but I wonder how accurately their instrument package would be in telling the difference between heating from an external source and heating from an internal source and knowing which caused the missile's destruction.
The papers were on ABM technology in general and they certainly aren't published works, they were undergrad papers. My point was that I've done a fair bit of reading on the subject, and that Pro-Jo is basing his idea for what we should do on a video from the History Channel or whatever.

Nobody knows if their instrumentation can detect internal heating vs. external heating obviously, but if I'm not mistaken we have external temperature sensors on our rockets. With that in mind it's not unreasonable to assume they have them as well, particularly for ones still in testing as the Taepodong-2 is.
Well, that explains things. Nevermind, I have access to sources better than an undergrad paper.
So where are your published postgraduate papers? Purely out of academic interest of course...
 

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