North Korea getting ready for second test?

[ProfJohn]

Here are two pieces of bad news.
1. NK may be getting read for a second test. There is some evidence that the first test was much weaker than expected and that perhaps it was a 'failed' test.
N. Korea may be preparing for nuke test

SEOUL, South Korea - Satellite images indicate North Korea appears to be getting ready for a second nuclear test, officials said Tuesday, as the defiant communist regime held huge rallies and proclaimed that U.N. sanctions amount to a declaration of war.

China, the North's longtime ally and biggest trading partner, warned Pyongyang not to aggravate tensions. The U.N. has condemned the Oct. 9 atomic blast, and U.S. nuclear envoy Christopher Hill told reporters in Seoul on Tuesday that another nuclear explosion would be "a very belligerent answer" to the world.

2. A former high ranking person from North Korea says sanctions won't hurt Kim.
Defector: Sanctions won't hurt N. Korea

SEOUL, South Korea - The man once considered the mentor of North Korean leader Kim Jong Il said Tuesday that the reclusive country's nuclear weapons program cannot be stopped unless the strongman is ousted

But Kim's total grip on the communist society makes that only a remote possibility, Hwang Jang Yop, the highest-ranking North Korean government official ever to defect to South Korea, told The Associated Press.

This is bad news on both fronts.
It looks more and more like the only way to stop Kim may be to remove him.
I am sure his second test is a way of showing the world that he has more than one nuke and maybe willing to use them.
If we truly fear him using a Nuke on the South then the only way out may be a coup.
Which if you read my post from last night may actually be on the table via China.

And check out these comments from the defector

He said South Korea, the U.S., China, Russia and Japan should not bargain with the North. They should instead isolate the regime, he said, calling it an "international criminal organization and the enemy of democracy."

Yet MORE proof that the idea of talking to him is worthless.
and

Hwang said China is key to bringing an end to Kim's regime.

Hey I have been saying this for days!!! Woohoo I am so smart

 

[Jaskalas]

I think the following link is more explosive.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/17/D8KQDMT80.html

They?ve declared that we?ve declared war. So if we connect the dots, haven?t they then declared war?

North Korea said Tuesday it considered U.N. sanctions aimed at punishing the country for its nuclear test "a declaration of war," as Japan and South Korea reported the communist nation might be preparing a second explosion.

The North broke two days of silence about the U.N. resolution adopted after its Oct. 9 nuclear test with a statement on the official state news agency, as China warned Pyongyang against stoking tensions.

"The resolution cannot be construed otherwise than a declaration of a war" against the North, the statement said. North Korea is known officially as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

 

[BrownTown]

The whole "declaration of war" talk is simply talk aimed at scarring the US into thinking that North Korea might use its nukes. Personally I am absolutely not worried about North Koreas nukes. I can think of alot of things that worry me more, like getting hit by a car on my way to school every day (and there arent any roads between my dorm and classes ).

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The whole "declaration of war" talk is simply talk aimed at scarring the US into thinking that North Korea might use its nukes. Personally I am absolutely not worried about North Koreas nukes. I can think of alot of things that worry me more, like getting hit by a car on my way to school every day (and there arent any roads between my dorm and classes ).

So a rogue nation with nuclear weapons and mentioning war is a-okay?

Personally, their rhetoric and action makes me want us to nuke them first.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The whole "declaration of war" talk is simply talk aimed at scarring the US into thinking that North Korea might use its nukes. Personally I am absolutely not worried about North Koreas nukes. I can think of alot of things that worry me more, like getting hit by a car on my way to school every day (and there arent any roads between my dorm and classes ).

Obviously you dont live in Alaska, jackass.

I had to put up with this kind of crap every day when I was growing up. Every week were intercepting a Russian bomber that "wandered" into our airspace.

All we need now is some freeky looking psycho with a new toy, desperate to make a point. The odds of him hitting anything are about the same as Oakland winning a game this year but even idiots get lucky once in a while.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

So a rogue nation with nuclear weapons and mentioning war is a-okay?

Personally, their rhetoric and action makes me want us to nuke them first.

The irony is painful.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

So a rogue nation with nuclear weapons and mentioning war is a-okay?

Personally, their rhetoric and action makes me want us to nuke them first.

The irony is painful.

:roll:

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The whole "declaration of war" talk is simply talk aimed at scarring the US into thinking that North Korea might use its nukes. Personally I am absolutely not worried about North Koreas nukes. I can think of alot of things that worry me more, like getting hit by a car on my way to school every day (and there arent any roads between my dorm and classes ).

Obviously you dont live in Alaska, jackass.

I had to put up with this kind of crap every day when I was growing up. Every week were intercepting a Russian bomber that "wandered" into our airspace.

All we need now is some freeky looking psycho with a new toy, desperate to make a point. The odds of him hitting anything are about the same as Oakland winning a game this year but even idiots get lucky once in a while.

North Korea can't get a nuke anywhere near Alaska so you don't need to be worried either. And with a yield of .5kT it would have to land 100m from your house to kill you anyways. Kim Jong Il is just another thing that *could* kill me but has such a small chance that I don't really care, kinda like SARS, bird flu, anthrax, and a million other things that make the evening news but still don't come close to killing as many people as things we do every day. Honestly, the stress hormones released by worrying about North Koread nukes are more likely to kill you than the North Korea nukes.

 

[theeedude]

Don't worry, Bush has a great plan on how to deal with N.K.

Blame Clinton

 

[MIDIman]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
North Korea can't get a nuke anywhere near Alaska so you don't need to be worried either. And with a yield of .5kT it would have to land 100m from your house to kill you anyways. Kim Jong Il is just another thing that *could* kill me but has such a small ...

And what about Kim selling a nuke to another country, like Iran, who then sneaks one into a US city? Is that completely impossible?

 

[Forsythe]

American officials are saying they're seeing preparations for a 2nd test. Everyone else is saying they're not seeing anything, China, SK, Japan.
Sounds like Bush is trying to scare some people in to voting republican.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Results of the first test are evaluated

 

[ebaycj]

Give Kim a bullet to the brain. It won't hurt.

 

[MikeO]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

So a rogue nation with nuclear weapons and mentioning war is a-okay?

Personally, their rhetoric and action makes me want us to nuke them first.

The irony is painful.

And what's even more painful is that he propably wouldn't understand the irony no matter how much you explained.

 

[Jaskalas]

More like I want threats like Kim eliminated, instead of us sitting around doing absolutely nothing for decades.

It?s entirely sickening, watching many of you downplaying North Korea and claiming they are incapable of anything. As if their first nuclear test/weapon is their last. Of course, you treat terrorism the same way so why not rogue nuclear states as well. This is the very attitude that allows nuclear proliferation ? you just don?t seem to give a **** about it.

First they blackmail us, and we?re all warm and fuzzy over it. They break the deal, and we stop sending them aid over it and then you?re all rabidly obsessed that we are to blame for their hostile intent and nuclear technology.

Then he says he has nukes, and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibility, and want us to act accordingly.

He detonates a nuclear weapon and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibly, and want us to act accordingly.

I wouldn?t be surprised if you blamed us when Kim, or a buyer from him, nukes a city. Or maybe you?d still keep up this mantra of doing your best to say that never happened either. It?s sickening to watch this attitude, apparently widespread in P&N, that reality isn?t happening before our eyes. Best line of thought is that Bush is behind the claims of their next nuclear test. Bravo.

They have nuclear weapons, they will test more to improve their capability, and no one needs a missile to ship one across to us by sea and land ? and their current missiles are more than capable of hitting anyone in the region. The people in that country are in dire starvation, they are a desperate people willing to take desperate measures but apparently none of this is true for all of you getting your jollies mocking/downplaying it. Telling us the only proper course of action is proverbial finger waging because that?s the correct and proper course of action. Or perhaps you?d like to go back to blackmail, if that seems to work best for you.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More like I want threats like Kim eliminated, instead of us sitting around doing absolutely nothing for decades.

It?s entirely sickening, watching many of you downplaying North Korea and claiming they are incapable of anything. As if their first nuclear test/weapon is their last. Of course, you treat terrorism the same way so why not rogue nuclear states as well. This is the very attitude that allows nuclear proliferation ? you just don?t seem to give a **** about it.

First they blackmail us, and we?re all warm and fuzzy over it. They break the deal, and we stop sending them aid over it and then you?re all rabidly obsessed that we are to blame for their hostile intent and nuclear technology.

Then he says he has nukes, and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibility, and want us to act accordingly.

He detonates a nuclear weapon and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibly, and want us to act accordingly.

I wouldn?t be surprised if you blamed us when Kim, or a buyer from him, nukes a city. Or maybe you?d still keep up this mantra of doing your best to say that never happened either. It?s sickening to watch this attitude, apparently widespread in P&N, that reality isn?t happening before our eyes. Best line of thought is that Bush is behind the claims of their next nuclear test. Bravo.

They have nuclear weapons, they will test more to improve their capability, and no one needs a missile to ship one across to us by sea and land ? and their current missiles are more than capable of hitting anyone in the region. The people in that country are in dire starvation, they are a desperate people willing to take desperate measures but apparently none of this is true for all of you getting your jollies mocking/downplaying it. Telling us the only proper course of action is proverbial finger waging because that?s the correct and proper course of action. Or perhaps you?d like to go back to blackmail, if that seems to work best for you.

Heh, so what do you think the US should do? Invade NK with hundreds of thousands soldiers tied up in Iraq and no end in sight? Not to mention China & Russia already said that they absolutely against military action against NK and there is no guarantee what they will do if US take military action. Do you wanna fight wars in two fronts with the possibility of taking it up a notch and fight against the Chinese as well?

You wanna keep the sanction going? Heh, North Koreans have been starving for the past 50 years and another 50 years of poor economy isn?t gonna change anything. You think KJL is gonna be hurt by the sanction? Haha.

So I guess the only option is negotiating with NK and try to keep them at bay while hoping to open up NK economy and give NK people a chance to see the outside world. Well, but we have people like you who get their feelings hurt thinking negotiating with NK is giving into the blackmails, so we cannot have that either.

Well, I guess the only thing left to do is to sit tight and let China do whatever, oh maybe their will consider US national interest and do what?s best of us in the US?.hehe

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More like I want threats like Kim eliminated, instead of us sitting around doing absolutely nothing for decades.

It?s entirely sickening, watching many of you downplaying North Korea and claiming they are incapable of anything. As if their first nuclear test/weapon is their last. Of course, you treat terrorism the same way so why not rogue nuclear states as well. This is the very attitude that allows nuclear proliferation ? you just don?t seem to give a **** about it.

First they blackmail us, and we?re all warm and fuzzy over it. They break the deal, and we stop sending them aid over it and then you?re all rabidly obsessed that we are to blame for their hostile intent and nuclear technology.

Then he says he has nukes, and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibility, and want us to act accordingly.

He detonates a nuclear weapon and you?re all poo-pahing the minute possibly, and want us to act accordingly.

I wouldn?t be surprised if you blamed us when Kim, or a buyer from him, nukes a city. Or maybe you?d still keep up this mantra of doing your best to say that never happened either. It?s sickening to watch this attitude, apparently widespread in P&N, that reality isn?t happening before our eyes. Best line of thought is that Bush is behind the claims of their next nuclear test. Bravo.

They have nuclear weapons, they will test more to improve their capability, and no one needs a missile to ship one across to us by sea and land ? and their current missiles are more than capable of hitting anyone in the region. The people in that country are in dire starvation, they are a desperate people willing to take desperate measures but apparently none of this is true for all of you getting your jollies mocking/downplaying it. Telling us the only proper course of action is proverbial finger waging because that?s the correct and proper course of action. Or perhaps you?d like to go back to blackmail, if that seems to work best for you.

Heh, so what do you think the US should do? Invade NK with hundreds of thousands soldiers tied up in Iraq and no end in sight? Not to mention China & Russia already said that they absolutely against military action against NK and there is no guarantee what they will do if US take military action. Do you wanna fight wars in two fronts with the possibility of taking it up a notch and fight against the Chinese as well?

You wanna keep the sanction going? Heh, North Koreans have been starving for the past 50 years and another 50 years of poor economy isn?t gonna change anything. You think KJL is gonna be hurt by the sanction? Haha.

So I guess the only option is negotiating with NK and try to keep them at bay while hoping to open up NK economy and give NK people a chance to see the outside world. Well, but we have people like you who get their feelings hurt thinking negotiating with NK is giving into the blackmails, so we cannot have that either.

Well, I guess the only thing left to do is to sit tight and let China do whatever, oh maybe their will consider US national interest and do what?s best of us in the US?.hehe

Kill the North Korean government, give the land to South Korea, and give South Korea large scale humanitarian aid to handle the following crisis. Troops only on the ground for combat, leaving immediately once the government has been overthrown and their army reduced to ruble.

Nit pick all you like. I?m sure our government?s intelligence experts are capable of better combat plans, but I?m not one to vote for sitting around waiting for them to achieve megaton sized nukes, or for us to get blackmailed. The threat needs to be eliminated today before it gets worse tomorrow. We?ve been in this position since 1994 and it is only getting worse under our do-nothing plan of in-action.

 

[piasabird]

Starve them to death.

Move UN troops to the North border and close it for good.

China wants to be a big player and get all of our business, so let them belly up to the bar and solve this problem or we give all of our business to India.

 

[Lemon law]

Look at it on the bright side---N. Korea has a very limited supply of Plutonium---the more they waste testing--the less they have left. And its now fairly clear the first test was a dud.
If they have to have three or four tests to finally learn how to get things right---that will eat a third to a half of their total supply.

But I see we got some great armchair generals here---lets look at the solutions offered.

1. Blame Clinton----always works---but when you look at it the proper way---its saying if Clinton could not get things right---how can you expect the greatly inferior GWB to get things right.

2. Just shoot Kim Jong ll---brillant---but who will bell the cat?---and how many N. Koreans soldiers will you have to kill standing between you and Kim? But always the bloodthirsty man's favorite. Nuke em is the high tech way.--reduces the number of refugees and solves the problem of feeding the dead.---but once you get over the hurdle of just murdering one man, a few million innocents added to it is no greater leap into moral degeneracy.

3. Various plans to seal the N. Korea China border---partition N. Korea---end of problem---until we realise China already said no way Hose.

4. Then the always popular give our business to India---works until the Chinese call in their debts---and while we transition off our China addiction--there are going to be alot of empty store shelves at Walmart----but Pisabird misses the obvious---why not do it ourselves---reduce that trade defecit---now running at world record clips---but me thinks Pisabird has spent too much of wasted youth playing tag football without a helmut on blacktop---all those pin point hematomas do reduce future thinking ability.

But the one plan that we must all reject out of hand is actually talking directly--one on one---with Kim Jong ll----God Forbid that total insanity.---what I ask is wrong with that???

Why does GWB insist on having five other parties all ganging up on N. Korea?---or is just another my way or the highway---or stay the course even after your policy fails.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon lawBut the one plan that we must all reject out of hand is actually talking directly--one on one---with Kim Jong ll----God Forbid that total insanity.---what I ask is wrong with that???

Why does GWB insist on having five other parties all ganging up on N. Korea?---or is just another my way or the highway---or stay the course even after your policy fails.

when one on one talks happens it is very easy to have a he said, she said situation.

No one is priviy to what realy happens if one side breaks the committments that are public.

Also, by multiparty talks; it may encourage everyone to work for a solution insteafd of giving away the candy store.

From NK, the reverse is true. They want 3-4 candy stores to be thrown open to them.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Lemon law


But the one plan that we must all reject out of hand is actually talking directly--one on one---with Kim Jong ll----God Forbid that total insanity.---what I ask is wrong with that???

And that is the one thing that Korea wants - to be recognized by the US.
That will instantly validate their government, give thier leadership (?) credence and be a symbol to the people
of that country that they really have a life and some semblance of a future.

Obviously turning your back and refusing to deal with them has worked so well - in 6 years it's
allowed us to see multiple missle launch tests, even if they were mostly random shots and stray trajectorys,
and a 'Successful' ( If you consider a dud to be a success ) Nuclear test.
They are even crowing that now they have the prestige of being a Modern Nuclear State, although not quite as advanced as Duke Nuke 'Em the Video Game.

 

[ProfJohn]

Lemon... what is it with you and the constant "until the Chinese call in their debts" thing you go on about? SO WHAT if China calls in their debts. What are you they going to do to collect? Call the White House every day at dinner time until we agree to pay them?

That whole argument is the biggest BS piece of crap argument I have ever seen.

There are lots of other ways to object to what Bush is doing, trying using ones that actually mean something instead of some bogus "calling in their debt" argument.

BTW: World War 2 was paid for entirely via loans from the people of this country via war bonds. We can and will find new sources of loans if China stops buying our bonds. It may cost more since we would have to pay higher interest rates, but it can be done. (Best idea is a balanced budget amendment that forces the government to stop its deficit spending. Let?s give them 5 years to balance the budget at which point we eliminate the salary and pension of EVERY member of congress and the President until the budget is balanced.)

And to answer your " talking directly--one on one---with Kim Jong ll" question, perhaps you should re-read the OP and see what someone who was a mentor to Kim says

He had been close to the country's founder, Kim Il Sung, the father of Kim Jong Il, and is often described as the younger Kim's former mentor. Hwang is also widely seen as the intellectual architect of the North's "juche" philosophy of self sufficiency.

and what he thinks of talking to North Korea

He said South Korea, the U.S., China, Russia and Japan should not bargain with the North. They should instead isolate the regime, he said, calling it an "international criminal organization and the enemy of democracy."

"It is nonsense to urge the North to abandon its nuclear weapons with Kim in place," he said.

Hwang said China is key to bringing an end to Kim's regime.

What part of this statement don't you understand?

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More like I want threats like Kim eliminated, instead of us sitting around doing absolutely nothing for decades.

So to eliminate Kim you want to kill him and the tens of thousands of people who happen to be within the blast radius? You're such a model citizen.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: Lemon law
But the one plan that we must all reject out of hand is actually talking directly--one on one---with Kim Jong ll----God Forbid that total insanity.---what I ask is wrong with that???

And that is the one thing that Korea wants - to be recognized by the US.
That will instantly validate their government, give thier leadership (?) credence and be a symbol to the people
of that country that they really have a life and some semblance of a future.

Obviously turning your back and refusing to deal with them has worked so well - in 6 years it's
allowed us to see multiple missle launch tests, even if they were mostly random shots and stray trajectorys,
and a 'Successful' ( If you consider a dud to be a success ) Nuclear test.
They are even crowing that now they have the prestige of being a Modern Nuclear State, although not quite as advanced as Duke Nuke 'Em the Video Game.

Kirk, I think you mistake why they want "one on one" talks. I believe most people think that Korea wants these talks because it would then elevate them to the level of equal position with the US.
Kim wants the world to see him as being equal in power and bearing as the US. It is like some crazy ego driven strategy by a megalomaniac.

Besides! We tried talking to him once and we even made a deal that was 100% in HIS favor and what did he do??? He CHEATED on the deal!

"Here Kim, we'll give you billions of dollars worth of aid and help you build two nuclear power plants for your people, in return all you have to do is stop making nuclear weapons"

It is like these people are reading from some "Stupid Dictators Handbook"

Look at Saddam post Gulf war. All he had to do was stop his WMD programs and let the inspectors run around his country and look where ever they wanted and he would still be in power.

But instead he had to play games, and hide things, and otherwise act like someone who did not want to disarm. Had Saddam followed the easy path he would still be sitting Baghdad on his gold toilet. There is NO way Bush would have invaded had Saddam been open and honest with the inspections. Even when it appears that Saddam actually had no more WMD, right before the war, he still played games with the inspectors. (Even the head of the inspection program RIGHT before the war said that Saddam was not giving them the level of cooperation that he was suppose too.)

Lil Kim is following the SAME path. If he gives up his plans for Nuclear weapons he gets aid and help to feed his people, which keeps him in power. But instead he wants to follow the path of becoming a Nuclear power, a path which many in the world dare not let him follow and the end results may very well end up being a bomb down a chimney while he sleeps. Or a Chinese backed coup.

At least Khodafi to his credit saw the writing on the wall and changed his behavior. Of course we came within a few feet of killing him, so I think he understood our power way more than Saddam or Kim have.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More like I want threats like Kim eliminated, instead of us sitting around doing absolutely nothing for decades.

So to eliminate Kim you want to kill him and the tens of thousands of people who happen to be within the blast radius? You're such a model citizen.

Talk about a straw argument.

We don't need to set of a Nuke to kill Kim. That is just the idea of some idiot.

There are ways to deal with Kim without setting of a Nuke. The most likely is a Chinese backed coup.