NooB VM Help

[ChrisHTS]

Sorry; being new to the forum...I wasn't quite sure, the best place to post this.

I'm a business owner...and we need to set up, a VM server.

We don't have great demands: we run POS clients, against a variety of environments (well...mostly Win7 Pro; but need machines, to run as servers...with multiple versions of our application).

I've seen solutions, like the Antsle...and also seen you guys (for the most part), trash it...lol. I get, why it would appeal...to someone, who doesn't know anything; but I also know enough...to know why, it might appeal to someone who doesn't know anything (like myself)...and therefore, might be wildly over-priced and under-whelming.

I can build a server...and I'm sure, figure out how to load VirtualBox. For my needs...these wouldn't even run, concurrently; just as needed...do I need more, than just your "typical" PC?

I guess one of the things, I am curious about...re: Antsle; is this idea, of pre-built (OS) templates?

This doesn't mean...the OSs, are just there for the taking; does it (edit; I do see, licenses are not included on the Windows templates...but)

Thanks...for any point, in the right direction.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Do not use virtualbox. Get that tattooed on your forehead if you have to.

If this is for production: (Uptime and availability are very, very important.)

Buy a new server with a warranty. Configure your (enterprise grade) storage as a mirrored RAID. Install Linux and KVM (a hypervisor, aka virt-manager). Use KVM to host your VMs. Do regular backups to either a dedicated storage appliance or to another general purpose server. (Possibly a cheap used one.)

If this is NOT for production: (Testing/QA/dev environment, etc.)

Buy a used server without a warranty. They're all over eBay and they're cheap. Configure your whatever storage as a whatever you want. Install Linux and KVM (a hypervisor, aka virt-manager). Use KVM to host your VMs. Do regular backups to either a dedicated storage appliance or to another general purpose server. (Possibly a cheap used one.)

Antsle is just a little microserver (looks like it uses a motherboard similar to this one) in a small case with some RAM and stuff. Hardware wise, yeah, you could build one yourself.

They're just using Linux and KVM (surprise!) as their core tech, plus Docker and some "glue code" (the stuff they wrote to make it all work together, give you a nice shiny UI, etc.)

As far as pre-built OS templates go, it's mostly just a time-saver. Any decent desktop support guy is going to build their own generalized install images, basically the same idea. I see it being useful if you wanted to test something on a bunch of OSes in a hurry, and it's great if you think installing an OS is difficult (it's not.) Combined with some kind of orchestration setup like Puppet or Ansible, it can also be really useful for environment-as-code.*

*(Stand up a VM, ensure that a given set of libraries/extensions/environment is configured a certain way, run your tests, kill the VM and throw it away. If you want to rerun the tests, you stand up a new VM, configure it exactly the same way, etc. The configuration is stored in a Puppet or Ansible configuration, so you don't have to save the VM itself, which economizes storage/disk/compute space, and ensures a very, very consistent environment between tests.)

I don't see Antsle being a good fit for any kind of production environment. It's more of a lab-in-a-box solution for contractors and people who work remotely a lot.

 

[ChrisHTS]

^^ OK; thank you.

Something like this https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2NS-0006-1KRH0&ignorebbr=1 or this https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2HE-000B-003P8&ignorebbr=1 ?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

^^ OK; thank you.

Something like this https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2NS-0006-1KRH0&ignorebbr=1 or this https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2HE-000B-003P8&ignorebbr=1 ?

Well, TBH, I was thinking more in terms of old rack mount equipment on Fleabay, but yeah, either of those would host a few VMs. *thumbsup*

Exact RAM/Storage requirements are something you'd need to figure out (how many VMs, how many concurrent VMs, much RAM/HDD per VM, etc.) So depending on what your footprint is, those systems might need upgrades to get them usable.

 

[ChrisHTS]

Yeah. We have a client; he needs a different box, with different OS.

He's got a Dell PowerEdge T110 II...E3-1230 (3.2GHz), 4G RAM, and 2008 R2. We could probably give him...like ~$100-150 in trade?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Yeah. We have a client; he needs a different box, with different OS.

He's got a Dell PowerEdge T110 II...E3-1230 (3.2GHz), 4G RAM, and 2008 R2. We could probably give him...like ~$100-150 in trade?

For a 7 year old low-end T110 config? I think you charge him for removal/disposal.

 

[ChrisHTS]

LOL. OK; wanna suggest something, in the right "area" to be considering Dave?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

LOL. OK; wanna suggest something, in the right "area" to be considering Dave?

I'm not sure what you mean - as I said, either of the systems you linked to upthread would work fine for the scenario outlined in the OP, you'd just have to drop some HDDs in the one, or up the RAM in the other. That's going to be par for the course though, unless you buy something much more expensive but ready-to-go.

I'd put the caveat in there that I'd want something more complex and redundant for any kind of revenue-sensitive system, but if you're just running POS VMs for testing purposes, there's no need.

W/R/T the client and trade-in, I guess that seems like a completely separate question. I think it's a terrible idea.

As a potential customer, I wouldn't expect a contractor/consultant installing a new system for me to give me trade-in value for the hardware I'm asking them to replace. That's weird. And frankly, if a contractor/consultant I'd hired started eyeballing my gear and making me (even lowball) offers for it, I'd probably get skeeved out and hire somebody else. That's not really very professional.

From your side of the table, if you're taking the equipment, you're kind of accepting responsibility for what happens to it (and any potentially sensitive data on it) afterwards, which is liability I wouldn't want to take on, especially not on the off chance I was able to eBay an old server for a few bucks more than I paid for it.

Disposal is different. You can charge the customer for disposal, guarantee the data will be securely erased (try a wood chipper) and drop the rest of the kit off at the hardware recyclers if you don't want to bother selling anything on eBay - which is fine because you've already made your money.

There's a perception thing there, too - if YOU expect to pay ME for something, then I know I have something you want and will be interested in negotiating. If you expect ME to pay YOU for something, then I suddenly, instinctively, place value on that service. Freelancers get into trouble with this a lot - if they don't charge enough, people undervalue their work.

 

[ChrisHTS]

Dave...I appreciate the advice; and you're being the only one, to wade-in and help the newbie.

With regards to the question, of what you would suggest; I guess my point was...I don't necessarily want to "over-kill" with anything brand new...if you think that's the case. And...you made it clear, the older box wasn't worth a damn; much less 3-figures, lol.

I know used alternatives, are endless...and you can't just pick something for me; just thought you might have some ideas...where I could pick up the ball, and run with it myself.

As for the other stuff: look, I'm new here; and I don't want to get dragged into a "fight". There was a time...where I'd take the bait; and that's not to say you're trying to bait me. Just, we'll agree to disagree...about the nature of the industry I've worked in, for 20 years.

Trade-in, is very common as a) it's certainly in my interest...to give you a little money, to ultimately have you buy something that makes me a lot more money; b) it's not for all things...but certain things, have re-sale value. So...not only do I make money, by giving you x, to make y; but then the equipment in question, has potential for additional profit as well (and...my customers see added value, in my being able to offer them used alternatives...occasionally; to new ones).

I really don't understand...where your stance of it being "weird", someone getting skeeved; or it not being "professional" comes from. I think you're looking at this thing, through the lens of your expertise. That's not to say, I take advantage of people; my customers are loyal, because I've earned their trust through fairness. If I express a desire for a piece...does that make them think, it must be worth something; and perhaps they'd do better to keep it and re-sell it themselves? Maybe; but that's a formula, as old as time. EVERYONE knows...you get more, selling your car on the open market than you do in trade from a dealer (usually...more on that in a minute). But...one's easy, and the other is "hard"; and that holds value...both monetarily and emotionally.

Sometimes, a dealer will even offer more in trade than they "should"; or take a loss on a trade...because again. Losing $500, to make $1,200...is a deal you make, almost every time, lol. But let's talk specifics:

This customer of mine...needs a new box. The PowerEdge is an outlier server, that we don't want to have to support; and I forget exactly when...but 2008 R2 is about to have PCI compliancy issues. It's in our interest, as well as his...to buy the new box. He's compliant, we have an easier time supporting him...and we make money on something sold.

Under normal circumstances...would I offer him money, for that PowerEdge; no. It doesn't do anything for me; normally. But...if you had said "sure; it's old...but it'll serve your purposes, and you're not going to get anything for less than $100 anyway"...then why not? We get something, he feels as if I gave him something; and everyone wins. That's why I mentioned it as an option.

You say it's junk; so...now I know. Thanks again.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Sorry if I'm getting preachy - your OP made it sound like you were a business owner in a non-IT field.

My professional experience is mostly generally in large public institutions and large-ish data centers. Hardware doesn't generally get resold - and certainly not without a process - just bought, used, and scrapped by the truckload. So I generally take an "it's disposable, screw it" attitude re: hardware. Spoiled, I guess. I've also had some negative experience IRL with people looking for a "hook up" - so I am pretty much automatically suspicious of anybody who's looking to acquire (as opposed to dispose of) 5+ year old computer equipment.

I'm also painfully, intimately familiar with the "bathtub curve" as far as hardware failures go (although unlike some of my stories, no fire was involved) - another reason that I'd recommend a 1-2 year old piece of used hardware for cost savings reasons, but avoid a 7+ year old piece of hardware for reliability reasons.

For an always-on server, I'd want something Haswell or newer, just for power draw (that can add up). That'd be a Xeon E3 v3 or newer, basically.

You speak truth - there are a bazillion options. Clicking around a bit, this thing comes with everything you need and a hardware warranty to boot. You could run backups to a cheap Synology and be in under $1k for hardware with at least some DR capability. Which, honestly, I think is pretty good. (But it's also possible that my "normal" is way outside your clients' budget.)

 

[ChrisHTS]

So Dave...let me a) thank you again, and b) clear a few things up.

We are an "IT" company; but...our expertise lies in some areas, and not others. Second...this server is for us; not a client.

I appreciate exactly what you did; saying "here's this T30. There are lots of options, depending on needs and budget; but this gives you (as I asked for)...a starting place, to go "up" or "down" from".

I'll look myself; and see what I can come up...but, as it might be beyond my scope. Out of curiosity...what are the differences, between say that T30...and the new ProLiant I posted earlier (the ML-10 tower)?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Second...this server is for us; not a client.

Ah. Well, then you can work without a net if you want to.

I'll look myself; and see what I can come up...but, as it might be beyond my scope. Out of curiosity...what are the differences, between say that T30...and the new ProLiant I posted earlier (the ML-10 tower)?

The only differences I can see are:
The price difference
The T30 has 8GB of RAM instead of 4GB
The T30 is a refurb and the ML-10 appears* to be being sold as new.

*I would probably contact Newegg and verify/clarify this, mostly because I don't see anything on the page w/r/t warranty information. Maybe I"m just missing it?

 

[ChrisHTS]

Dave, one last thing...and then I'll thank you for your help, and let you be; or at least let the thread be...until I have the hardware, and then need advice on how to set the damn thing up, lol

Given my very modest needs...and I know, I could probably go even "lower" than this; but any reason or advice you can offer...as to why I wouldn't just go with something like this http://www.provantage.com/hpe-873830-s01~7HPE940V.htm at ~$320 vs. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...utm_medium=affiliates&utm_source=afc-VigLink2 at ~$470

The more expensive one, is within my budget; as long as it's not over-kill...and a waste of money (IYO). Thanks again.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Dave, one last thing...and then I'll thank you for your help, and let you be; or at least let the thread be...until I have the hardware, and then need advice on how to set the damn thing up, lol

Given my very modest needs...and I know, I could probably go even "lower" than this; but any reason or advice you can offer...as to why I wouldn't just go with something like this http://www.provantage.com/hpe-873830-s01~7HPE940V.htm at ~$320 vs. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...utm_medium=affiliates&utm_source=afc-VigLink2 at ~$470

The more expensive one, is within my budget; as long as it's not over-kill...and a waste of money (IYO). Thanks again.

Well, your second link there only has 4GB of RAM. I'm not sure that's enough? (I mean, it'll probably sort of work, but performance will be crap if your VMs are paging to disk.)

The thing you can't easily change is that CPU - the Opteron is relatvely weak. The Microserver would make an excellent storage server or NAS appliance, but is going to struggle with anything CPU intensive. That's why the second one is more expensive.

I think it would probably suffice for what you're talking about doing at the moment. But consider the duration of the project, what you might want to repurpose the hardware for in a year or two, etc.? A little extra CPU grunt might not be a bad thing to have in your back pocket. (Since you know the specifics, you need to decide how to size this.)

Worst case is that in a year or two you outgrow the little guy and have to buy a new more powerful system to run your VMs. But then you can use the "old" (not that old) system as a backup or something.

 

[ChrisHTS]

Great thinking! And thanks again.

Even as a "starter"...probably makes sense, to pay the ~$65; for the X3421? To get the quad 2.1 (vs dual 1.6)??

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Great thinking! And thanks again.

Even as a "starter"...probably makes sense, to pay the ~$65; for the X3421? To get the quad 2.1 (vs dual 1.6)??

I definitely* would. *nods*

*Actually, I'd probably get the Xeon, also because it has an Intel NIC. But I'm kind of a snob that way. The Broadcom NICs in the Opteron rig are going to be fine. Ignore me.

 

[XavierMace]

I know I'm late to the party here, but I'd pretty much echo Dave's statements on everything. Personally, I've got a preference for HP over Dell, but I've never dealt with entry level models like being discussed here.

On the trade in front, I've never seen a client get offered trade-in for their old servers.

 

[ChrisHTS]

FTR...X3421 arrives tomorrow.

Would I be better off, with a WD4000FYYZ or WD40EFRX?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

FTR...X3421 arrives tomorrow.

Would I be better off, with a WD4000FYYZ or WD40EFRX?

Between the two, the WD4000FYYZ will be a bit faster.

I'd really recommend SSD for VM datastores, if you can swing it. But money.