NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,416
5,209
126
The vaccines SLOW DOWN the virus transmission but DO NOT PREVENT IT.

The vaccines PREVENT MOST of the more serious cases BUT NOT ALL.

That's pretty much the gist of it.
Gee, you could have surmised all that without data, I certainly did. People have their own agendas and distort reality to suit them. I am so pro vaccination it isn't funny. Got all mine ASAP in spades. Want everybody who can to get vaxxxed, and yes, that's with 3 X's. In fact, I'm already looking for my 4th X, I heard they're doing that in Israel now!
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,139
1,904
136
This is just wrong. The vaccines absolutely prevent infections. If you inhale virus, you're not infected, you're exposed. We know that inhaling a single viral particle isn't enough to cause infection, it requires a larger dose. Simply breathing in the virus isn't infection; that requires the entire infectious process to take place. Viral particles have to be exposed to cells. They have to grab on to the ACE2 receptor, be transported inside the cell, transported into the nucleus, and then replicate:

I dont know if vaccine-induced antibodies can interfere with the replication process, but they sure as fuck can glom on a viral particles and prevent them from binding ACE2 receptors and being transported inside the cell.

If you want to split hairs and say as long as one viral particle was able to successfully replicate then you were infected, so be it. But the consensus is they absolutely do prevent infection.

Edit: double checked everything with my friend who's a micro prof and she concurs, with the added refinement that infection comprises entering the cell only. Infections which result in replication, and abortive infections, which do not.

She added a nice visual reference:
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
64,373
18,488
136
Gubment needs the tax revenue from business activities and needs dumb people to believe in stupid things to fuel businesses. The way to do that is to get people's guards down. The experts always know that it is no force field. But the media and "actions" by the likes of the CDC leads people to infer that's all good to let their guards down. So, young, healthy, and vaccinated do their thing with not much ill effects, but "spreading" still occurs amongst the population and by the time someone tests positive, at least a few days have passed where the virus has grown and spread elsewhere, and by chance alone, might hit a few more vulnerable people who die or get hospitalized.

It's basically trying to overstate the effects of a vaccine that combats a species of virus that mutates and will come back like the common cold.

Vaccination is basically insurance. No different from a policy or product. Insurance doesn't stop a car accident; it just makes sure that if someting happens, there's a process for payout. Roadside assitance is insurance, but a product also can be one as well. Tire plugs can be a low-cost fix in certain situations. Just because one can call a tow doesn't mean not being able to insert a tire plug and have a little compressor in the car.

Likewise, having the vaccine doesn't means other issues should not be addressed. These other issues are not being pushed by the news because the diseases of diabetes, heart disease, etc are the result companies wanting to make money. If the vaccine can suppress the dying and system strain while still letting people eat like pigs, get sick and insulin resistant, that is actually what the government really wants. Society could do well with a Vitamin D supplement subsidy, or having a temporary EBT allowance to buy D3.

Government is more than happy to live with COVID provided that the suffering and death can be offloaded solely onto private individual's heads. COVID has wiped out "costly" people, the old, and disabled, and "undesirables", in a manner that cannot be called unethical. This cures the "inverted population pyramid".
I took the time to read and consider your entire post. Now I want that time back.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,393
5,108
136
This is just wrong. The vaccines absolutely prevent infections. If you inhale virus, you're not infected, you're exposed. We know that inhaling a single viral particle isn't enough to cause infection, it requires a larger dose. Simply breathing in the virus isn't infection; that requires the entire infectious process to take place. Viral particles have to be exposed to cells. They have to grab on to the ACE2 receptor, be transported inside the cell, transported into the nucleus, and then replicate:

I dont know if vaccine-induced antibodies can interfere with the replication process, but they sure as fuck can glom on a viral particles and prevent them from binding ACE2 receptors and being transported inside the cell.

If you want to split hairs and say as long as one viral particle was able to successfully replicate then you were infected, so be it. But the consensus is they absolutely do prevent infection.
But surely that depends on how effective the vaccine has been in producing enough antibodies? If it's been a few months since you had the jabs, and you haven't had a booster, as I understand it, your antibody count drops considerably, therefore the virus will make it into some of your cells, particularly if it's a new variant that the vaccine-induced antibodies are not hugely-effective against anyway - hence you will be infected.

Incidentally, am I correct in understanding (purely from reading what's said in the news media) that t-cells provide a sort of back-up system, in that they kill the cells that have been infected by viruses that the antibodies haven't managed to stop? Like nuking your own cities once the enemy have occupied them. So maybe you won't remain infected for as long as you would have?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,416
5,209
126
This is just wrong. The vaccines absolutely prevent infections. If you inhale virus, you're not infected, you're exposed. We know that inhaling a single viral particle isn't enough to cause infection, it requires a larger dose. Simply breathing in the virus isn't infection; that requires the entire infectious process to take place. Viral particles have to be exposed to cells. They have to grab on to the ACE2 receptor, be transported inside the cell, transported into the nucleus, and then replicate:

I dont know if vaccine-induced antibodies can interfere with the replication process, but they sure as fuck can glom on a viral particles and prevent them from binding ACE2 receptors and being transported inside the cell.

If you want to split hairs and say as long as one viral particle was able to successfully replicate then you were infected, so be it. But the consensus is they absolutely do prevent infection.
Yes, I recall very very early on in the pandemic some knowledgeable person noting that theoretically one viral particle could result in you coming down with covid-19, but I think that that's basically impossible in a person with anything like a normal immune system. Even if your system has never been exposed to covid-19 in any variant one viral particle is going to get anywhere. Viral dose is a big deal. It's one reason that I'm going to be masked up for some time anywhere indoors with strangers. People who are low risk have died (particularly before the vaccine rollouts), but I figure that most of the time it's because they got a massive viral dose to begin with and their system got overwhelmed before it could stage much of a response.

Once I realized all this (even before getting vaxxed) I started relaxing in my protocols. For quite sometime I was worried about the teeniest exposure. But that wasn't realistic. Minimizing exposure is more the thing. But as they have been saying for some time, the biggest thing you can do to protect yourself and everyone else is to get as vaxxxxed as you can. To help slow down the now virtually exponential rise in omicron, even the maximally vaxxed should mask up indoors with people whose situation with regard to the pandemic is uncertain.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,527
5,525
136
What? Yes it will, in fact the mRNA vaccines do this particularly well after a booster. Other vaccines not so much. You have some data to support your claim or just spreading misinformation or cherry picking data and playing fast and loose with the truth?

I for one will take swollen glands and a scratchy throat over the equivalent of having severe influenza which can easily kill even a completely healthy adult human. (this is FACT not speculation)

The reality is that some people seem to spend a lot of their time looking for "evidence" to support what they have already decided is the truth. (and that "truth" is usually what they "want" to believe)
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
23,904
2,089
126
This is just wrong. The vaccines absolutely prevent infections. If you inhale virus, you're not infected, you're exposed.
Now you are just nitpicking words. No current vaccine prevents exposure. And they do not fully prevent binding, transport, or replication. They reduce those events. Infection always occurs if you inhale any significant number of particles, just not to a clinically significant level.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,416
5,209
126
I for one will take swollen glands and a scratchy throat over the equivalent of having severe influenza which can easily kill even a completely healthy adult human. (this is FACT not speculation)
I figure that an exposure you fight off with ease will likely confer further immunity. But I'm still being real careful!
The reality is that some people seem to spend a lot of their time looking for "evidence" to support what they have already decided is the truth. (and that "truth" is usually what they "want" to believe)
I think that's what they call "confirmation bias."

What triggers confirmation bias?

Confirmation bias occurs from the direct influence of desire on beliefs. When people would like a certain idea or concept to be true, they end up believing it to be true. They are motivated by wishful thinking. ... Confirmation bias suggests that we don't perceive circumstances objectively.

This is why it's important to have considerable, fundamental education in at least one science:

"Clever people may learn as much as they wish of the results of science--still one will always notice in their conversation, and especially in their hypotheses, that they lack the scientific spirit; they do not have that instinctive mistrust of the aberrations of thought which through long training are deeply rooted in the soul of every scientific person. They are content to find any hypothesis at all concerning some matter; then they are all fire and flame for it and think that is enough. To have an opinion means for them to fanaticize for it and thenceforth to press it to their hearts as a conviction. If something is unexplained, they grow hot over the first notion that comes into their heads and looks like an explanation--which results progressively in the worst consequences, especially in the sphere of politics. For that reason everyone should now study at least one science from the bottom up: then he will know what method means and how important is the utmost circumspection." -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
10,621
7,381
146
Because it isn't made up. There are 70% fewer symptomatic infections. Therefore there are AT LEAST 70% fewer deaths. That isn't made up. Maybe the number is 80%, but it certainly isn't lower than 70%. That is useful information to know.
Then THAT needs to be the message, very specific, even if it flies over the masses. 70% 'protection' doesn't mean the same thing as 70% fewer symptomatic infections. It should be clear what it is they're referring to.
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,028
3,725
136
What I keep hearing is that that booster is doing a lot of that work, especially if the initial jabs were not mRNA ones (glad I had my Pfizer "chaser" shot over a month ago)
e.g.


Which says to me that without the booster, you are indeed likely to still get ill, i.e. have symptoms.
Right, but I would argue that a booster is part of the vaccination series at this point and likely will be indefinitely. Arguing that it doesn't prevent infection if you don't take it, is a pretty silly place from which to argue because that's a given.


The "breakthrough" infections of people who are already fully vaccinated and boosted should be all the data you need. Surely you must know somebody who got all their shots and got COVID anyway by now. If not, you can find plenty of examples in the media. Jim Cramer from CNBC is one of the more recent examples. He's so pro vaccination that he was recommending sending in the military to the homes of unvaccinated people to give them forced shots on Twitter. Didn't stop him from getting it.
Please share the data you are referring to regarding breakthrough boosted infections. I don't deal in anecdotes "from the media." Geisinger has some data that reports Covid positivity in tested subjects with boosters was 0.2%, so yes, it happens, but practically, it's nearly non-existent. That data may certainly change, but your assertion is simply misleading if not outright false.

My only point really was slightly disagreeing with Vrolock (though I realise he's an actual doctor) in his claim that vaccines will prevent one from getting sick. it appears, from that linked report, to be the case that that's not true sans booster jab (particularly with AZ, that is the most common here, which is reportedly fairly ineffectual against omicron), and is not 100% the case even with a booster.

On the other hand, booster jabbing as many people as possible will clearly greatly reduce the number of people who end up severely affected.
Like I said earlier, a lot of this is coming down to semantics and wording. Yes, only receiving 2 doses of Moderna/Pfizer is likely to leave you significantly open to infection (though mild) after several months and a booster will close this gap dramatically. But, we should be considering a booster part of the vaccine series - having a "I got my 2/2 doses but am not getting a booster" is a really weird place to be. Complete vaccination with the mRNA vaccines (2 doses + booster) confers significant protection against infection - at least for now.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
23,904
2,089
126
28,000 in NY.
Some current projections in the US are for this winter's peak to have about 5 to 6 times the number of infections as last winter. This is due to the quick spreading of Omicron and the terrible timing of Omicron and the holidays. Luckily, the number of deaths is not predicted to be as high.

 
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Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
31,964
1,921
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Sitting here, crying my eyes out. We have lost what? Close to a million people in this country? Yet we bicker & fight, making a deadly virus a political statement?

….. and people like me sit basically under house arrest in their homes …

This is a long December indeed & there is no reason to believe that next year will be better than the last 😢😢😢
 
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Roger Wilco

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2017
2,520
2,978
136
Sitting here, crying my eyes out. We have lost what? Close to a million people in this country? Yet we bicker & fight, making a deadly virus a political statement?

….. and people like me sit basically under house arrest in their homes …

This is a long December indeed & there is no reason to believe that next year will be better than the last 😢😢😢
I think it will be much better. Many people are just now getting their first hit of real covid. Soon, practically everyone on the planet will have some form of natural immunity, which I think will help tremendously with hospitalization spikes at the very least.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
23,527
5,525
136
Sitting here, crying my eyes out. We have lost what? Close to a million people in this country? Yet we bicker & fight, making a deadly virus a political statement?

….. and people like me sit basically under house arrest in their homes …

This is a long December indeed & there is no reason to believe that next year will be better than the last 😢😢😢

And worst of all is that its mainly innocent folks like you that are paying the price.

For the life of me I can't understand the selfishness. o_O
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
14,654
11,639
136
I'm seeing this as a positive. South Africa and Scotland are saying the omicron wave is past its peak already. No real alarm for hospitalizations and deaths for the vaccinated.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,028
3,725
136
I'm seeing this as a positive. South Africa and Scotland are saying the omicron wave is past its peak already. No real alarm for hospitalizations and deaths for the vaccinated.
Unfortunately caring for those who aren't vaccinated and are sick is exhausting.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,139
1,904
136
Now you are just nitpicking words. No current vaccine prevents exposure. And they do not fully prevent binding, transport, or replication. They reduce those events. Infection always occurs if you inhale any significant number of particles, just not to a clinically significant level.
The only word I'm nitpicking is "does" versus "does not" 😂

The clinical trial design looked at infection rates in the vaccine arm versus the placebo arm and found that the vaccine massively reduces risk of infection (either symptomatic or asymptomatic, primary outcomes 19 and 20):
Stating the vaccine doesn't prevent infection is hogwash.
 
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manly

Diamond Member
Jan 25, 2000
9,566
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The only word I'm nitpicking is "does" versus "does not" 😂

The clinical trial design looked at infection rates in the vaccine arm versus the placebo arm and found that the vaccine massively reduces risk of infection (either symptomatic or asymptomatic, primary outcomes 19 and 20):
Stating the vaccine doesn't prevent infection is hogwash.
Two problems with your posts. First you're using the word prevention unequivocally, which can be inferred to mean the mRNA vaccines are extremely effective at preventing transmission.

Secondly, what was true for the original Wuhan strain is no longer the case for Omicron. Yes, a triple-dose course of mRNA vaccine does in fact cut down significantly on symptomatic infections but it's nowhere near 100%. 6 months after a two-dose course, the efficacy against Omicron infection is fairly modest and that's why Omicron is doubling so rapidly. Source: recent UK study (and before that Israeli data from the delta surge).
 

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