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NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,973
3,996
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They doing a 2/3 combo.
Which is a phase 2 followed by phase 3. It eliminates dead time between the two, but it is still two separate phases.just like phase 1 was in the same trial and was separate.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
37,268
11,699
136
Which is a phase 2 followed by phase 3. It eliminates dead time between the two, but it is still two separate phases.just like phase 1 was in the same trial and was separate.
Unless I'm mistaken they're running them simultaneously, which would seem to be the case with the timeline they're stating.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,973
3,996
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Unless I'm mistaken they're running them simultaneously, which would seem to be the case with the timeline they're stating.
Guess I should've read the article. That is different than the other 2/3 trials. That's good news.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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People keep claiming mounting evidence without actually showing any mounting evidence.
Well, they are so public at this point I figured I wouldn't need to cite them. Would you like for me to?

I mean - at minimal will you admit that it was once actively condemned by the news media and declared a hoax, that it's racist, conspiracy theory - etc... and magically overnight now that research and people have actually started flowing out that it's no longer in that category?
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Well, they are so public at this point I figured I wouldn't need to cite them. Would you like for me to?

I mean - at minimal will you admit that it was once actively condemned by the news media and declared a hoax, that it's racist, conspiracy theory - etc... and magically overnight now that research and people have actually started flowing out that it's no longer in that category?
It still is an underlying racist conspiracy theory.

The evidence for a lab accident being the cause is low, and the evidence of it being an engineered virus in some fashion (de novo or some sort of gain of function work) is nonexistent.

The story is largely being pushed to absolve certain other peoples of their failures to properly respond to the pandemic. It's certainly not because the general public and those public officials are genuinely curious about BSL3/4 lab safety, and if we need to address that to prevent future accidents (if indeed, that was the what precipitated this whole affair).

It is important to try and understand where the virus originated, as these kinds of pandemics could happen again as we have greater encroachment on wild habitats (without any sort of future hypothetical lab accident); however the level of discourse is not conducive to actually figuring out what happened; the public discourse largely wants to assign blame.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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It still is an underlying racist conspiracy theory.

The evidence for a lab accident being the cause is low, and the evidence of it being an engineered virus in some fashion (de novo or some sort of gain of function work) is nonexistent.

The story is largely being pushed to absolve certain other peoples of their failures to properly respond to the pandemic. It's certainly not because the general public and those public officials are genuinely curious about BSL3/4 lab safety, and if we need to address that to prevent future accidents (if indeed, that was the what precipitated this whole affair).

It is important to try and understand where the virus originated, as these kinds of pandemics could happen again as we have greater encroachment on wild habitats (without any sort of future hypothetical lab accident); however the level of discourse is not conducive to actually figuring out what happened; the public discourse largely wants to assign blame.
I don''t follow how a virology lab that is funded by our government has anything to do with racism.

Are you playing 4D chess in life or something?

You can't keep citing racism as a means to shut-down conversation.
 
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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,738
3,692
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It still is an underlying racist conspiracy theory.

The evidence for a lab accident being the cause is low, and the evidence of it being an engineered virus in some fashion (de novo or some sort of gain of function work) is nonexistent.

The story is largely being pushed to absolve certain other peoples of their failures to properly respond to the pandemic. It's certainly not because the general public and those public officials are genuinely curious about BSL3/4 lab safety, and if we need to address that to prevent future accidents (if indeed, that was the what precipitated this whole affair).

It is important to try and understand where the virus originated, as these kinds of pandemics could happen again as we have greater encroachment on wild habitats (without any sort of future hypothetical lab accident); however the level of discourse is not conducive to actually figuring out what happened; the public discourse largely wants to assign blame.

Personally I think it _was_ partly a racist conspiracy theory, pushed for the reasons you give, at least insofar as who pushed the idea originally. But it seems as if there's a nub of real grounds for suspicion in there as people other than the 'usual suspects' have started raising questions about it. Including the Biden admin itself.

And as far as I'm concerned the whole point of considering it is indeed because of the possible need to look at the issue of lab security. I have no idea, really, as to how to judge the 'evidence' but such a staggeringly huge global catastrophe merits a full examination of every possibility, and I don't see that a reluctance to 'blame China' should be allowed to deflect from that any more than should an irrational determination to blame them. (In any case, I don't think it's "China" so much as the global scientific community, at least the biosciences, that might have some questions to answer).
 
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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,738
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I mean, as abysmal as the Trump admin's performance was, I can't say I'm impressed with performance of the WHO or the CDC, either. And I particularly wonder why it was so politically-difficult for most countries to put any restrictions on international travel.

In a just world Trump would be in jail, for this and many other things, but I don't think the repucussions for something this huge should or will stop with the orange idiot.
 
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Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,973
3,996
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I mean, as abysmal as the Trump admin's performance was, I can't say I'm impressed with performance of the WHO or the CDC, either. And I particularly wonder why it was so politically-difficult for most countries to put any restrictions on international travel.

In a just world Trump would be in jail, for this and many other things, but I don't think the repucussions for something this huge should or will stop with the orange idiot.
I think there issue with the CDC is they became politically ran in the 1980s and started to care about politics at that point.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,190
852
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So your evidence against the article is a popup on Foreign Policy magazine that is probably autotriggered by article content and a racist trope about the journalist's surname?
You have a strange definition for “racist.” How is the reality that the name is a common Chinese surname “a racist trope?” Reality = Racist?

...but, clearly, you are trying to call me racist for noticing or acknowledging the possibility. Recognizing a common Chinese surname in an article that aligns with current Chinese propaganda is not “racist.” Is Google racist for affirming that? How is the reality that it’s a common Chinese surname somehow “a racist trope?”

I’m just saying I wouldn’t be so quick to endorse it as “good” knowing that it could be soft-power Chinese propaganda from an author motivated to reach a certain conclusion. That’s all. Don’t post stuff like that and not EXPECT it to get pointed out. Better yet, acknowledge it yourself instead of just calling it “good.”

You could’ve said: You might think this is Chinese propaganda for obvious reasons but I think it makes some good points.

...but, no. You’d rather point the finger and scream “racist” when someone more straight-forward and honest than you points out the elephant in the room.
 

JujuFish

Lifer
Feb 3, 2005
10,428
422
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You have a strange definition for “racist.” How is the reality that the name is a common Chinese surname “a racist trope?” Reality = Racist?

...but, clearly, you are trying to call me racist for noticing or acknowledging the possibility. Recognizing a common Chinese surname in an article that aligns with current Chinese propaganda is not “racist.” Is Google racist for affirming that? How is the reality that it’s a common Chinese surname somehow “a racist trope?”

I’m just saying I wouldn’t be so quick to endorse it as “good” knowing that it could be soft-power Chinese propaganda from an author motivated to reach a certain conclusion. That’s all. Don’t post stuff like that and not EXPECT it to get pointed out. Better yet, acknowledge it yourself instead of just calling it “good.”

You could’ve said: You might think this is Chinese propaganda for obvious reasons but I think it makes some good points.

...but, no. You’d rather point the finger and scream “racist” when someone more straight-forward and honest than you points out the elephant in the room.
Probably because the author's surname has nothing to do with the quality or integrity of the content? I think lots of people would agree that using a person's last name both as a way at assume their race and use that race as an attack against the quality of their writing is, very simply put, racist.

By the way, did you know Ling is also an English name? Did you know a third of people with the surname Ling in the US are white? No? You just assume Chinese? Okay, then.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,001
5,145
146
You have a strange definition for “racist.” How is the reality that the name is a common Chinese surname “a racist trope?” Reality = Racist?

...but, clearly, you are trying to call me racist for noticing or acknowledging the possibility. Recognizing a common Chinese surname in an article that aligns with current Chinese propaganda is not “racist.” Is Google racist for affirming that? How is the reality that it’s a common Chinese surname somehow “a racist trope?”

I’m just saying I wouldn’t be so quick to endorse it as “good” knowing that it could be soft-power Chinese propaganda from an author motivated to reach a certain conclusion. That’s all. Don’t post stuff like that and not EXPECT it to get pointed out. Better yet, acknowledge it yourself instead of just calling it “good.”

You could’ve said: You might think this is Chinese propaganda for obvious reasons but I think it makes some good points.

...but, no. You’d rather point the finger and scream “racist” when someone more straight-forward and honest than you points out the elephant in the room.
The guy is Canadian. Or at least, he's in Canada right now.
1623948858186.png

Look, there's reasons to suspect that this was a lab leak, there's reasons to think it wasn't a lab leak. A reporter's last name is NOT one of those reasons, and only serves to create racist arguments, even if it wasn't the original intent.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,190
852
126
The guy is Canadian. Or at least, he's in Canada right now.
View attachment 45891

Look, there's reasons to suspect that this was a lab leak, there's reasons to think it wasn't a lab leak. A reporter's last name is NOT one of those reasons, and only serves to create racist arguments, even if it wasn't the original intent.
No one suggested his last name had any bearing on whether or not it was a lab leak. It was about how likely the article is to be soft-power propaganda, as well-written as it is.

I thought it was a good read and made many valid points and would not say he can’t be trusted just because of his race or last name. I’m just saying I would hedge my endorsement of it, knowing what it COULD be.


By the way, did you know Ling is also an English name? Did you know a third of people with the surname Ling in the US are white? No? You just assume Chinese? Okay, then.
Of course I did. It’s right there in the screenshot *I* shared. There’s a reason it’s listed second though.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,021
1,998
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It's not racist to be fearful and suspicious of the CCP. People would feel the same way if it came out in Russia. Any country that limits free press and access to information is going to be looked on with suspicion.

The fact that there is literally a lab in in the city it appears to have originated in that studied viruses and was studying bat specimens is going to create suspicion no matter what country or race was involved.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,190
852
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I do think it has a purely zoonotic origin. I do think it was spreading months before it was detected, possibly much more slowly. Even if it leaked from a lab I don’t think the lab engineered it... merely studied it. Even studying a natural sample can lead to a lab leak which does not mean they were engineering them or working on germ warfare or any of that. Close proximity to sick animals in a lab resulting in a sick person spreading it to others is still zoonotic.

Though I think it was most likely purely zoonotic without going through a lab, I also don’t think it came from the cluster of cases identified at the Huanan Seafood Market. Of course most early cases were linked to the market when it was literally part of the clinical diagnostic criteria for the new SARS-like viral pneumonia that was getting noticed, and let’s not forget that the earliest cases had no contact with the market.

In Wuhan November/December 2020: You’re sick but no contact with the market? Diagnosis: unspecified pneumonia or flu. They didn’t have adequate testing at first either. The PCR tests had to be developed.

I do wonder if there is intelligence that points to a lab leak, especially in light of recent actions, but I will not take those actions themselves as evidence for more unknown evidence. Until something more substantial is made public I have to assume it is to put political pressure on China.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,190
852
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Just came across this old post from January:
I don't believe we are missing anywhere near the number of cases as we were even six months ago. That huge supposedly undetected number is just another tool people are using to claim herd immunity is near and this thing is almost over without more lockdowns or vaccines. It was probably true in April but now not so much.
How about a year later (March 2021)?

Considering vaccination rates at the time, it looks like it was still one in six cases reported based on seroprevalence... and we all know that serological tests fail to detect older infections even though immunity remains. That means natural immunity is likely higher. The spread literally peaked at New Years Eve, 11 days before that post (measured peak was only 3 days prior). Yeah, I’d say the CDC estimate at the time of 1 in 7 was still pretty close.

It is fantastic, but the trendline is discouraging. Unless you figure out some way to crack vaccine hesitancy (ignoring the outright refuseniks), experts now believe it is unlikely we will reach "herd immunity" this year. Maybe that'll be OK, we could possibly be into the 60s % vaccinated, with significant natural immunity as well. If I had to guess, the pandemic isn't ending for the U.S. this summer, and there will be a manageable bump of infections in the late fall.
The India/Delta variant is here. We are getting there before 2022 one way or the other. With seroprevalence over 50% back in March it’s safe to say that actual immunity is much higher, especially since vaccine distribution had not slowed at that point. Despite hesitancy, we are on-track for herd immunity if not nearly there.

Even if we reach herd immunity it could be short-lived if an major immune escape variant emerges elsewhere in the world, so obviously we can’t take too much comfort in that.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
19,137
2,715
126
To be blunt ... I've yet to see much/any EVIDENCE that anyone really knows where Covid-19 originated.

I have heard a lot of people talking endless crap though. :confused_old:

Also why is it that folks are fixated on Covid having been "created" in a lab? It could easily be a completely natural dangerous pathogen they were studying which got loose due to some sloppy lab safety practices.

This is not even a SMALL stretch IMO. Having said that I still don't believe anyone is sure about anything.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,001
5,145
146
To be blunt ... I've yet to see much/any EVIDENCE that anyone really knows where Covid-19 originated.

I have heard a lot of people talking endless crap though. :confused_old:

Also why is it that folks are fixated on Covid having been "created" in a lab? It could easily be a completely natural dangerous pathogen they were studying which got loose due to some sloppy lab safety practices.

This is not even a SMALL stretch IMO. Having said that I still don't believe anyone is sure about anything.
'Lab leak' doesn't necessarily require some Dr Moreau style crafting of dna/rna strands. I'm pretty sure any non-crazy 'lab leak theorists' (I include myself in that) are far more in the camp of one of two theories; either it being natural (and somehow having not already broken loose across the globe), having been studied, and got out through poor handling practices, OR (and what I find to be far more likely) that there was gain of function research being done on an existing pathogen, which permitted it either intentionally or unintentionally to infect humans, which then led to an unintended release.

Yes, it's perfectly possible that this was a natural event. There's just a lot of coincidences that surround that natural event, which raises my eyebrow.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
61,317
5,158
126
Crap. This might explain why some people's sense of smell haven't fully returned even after covid recovery.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/new-covid-study-hints-at-long-term-loss-of-brain-tissue-dr-scott-gottlieb-warns.html

I think @vi edit mentioned in a thread I read that he got covid and his sense of smell was still messed up even after recovery.

Oof. Yeah. I'm almost 15 months out and almost no smell. Well this sucks. :/

Thanks for the link and tag though. I've not seen this theory before.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
31,084
3,954
126
'Lab leak' doesn't necessarily require some Dr Moreau style crafting of dna/rna strands. I'm pretty sure any non-crazy 'lab leak theorists' (I include myself in that) are far more in the camp of one of two theories; either it being natural (and somehow having not already broken loose across the globe), having been studied, and got out through poor handling practices, OR (and what I find to be far more likely) that there was gain of function research being done on an existing pathogen, which permitted it either intentionally or unintentionally to infect humans, which then led to an unintended release.

Yes, it's perfectly possible that this was a natural event. There's just a lot of coincidences that surround that natural event, which raises my eyebrow.
Isn't it possible that there was some modification on a zoonotic strain in the lab, a subsequent leak and that we'll find out by virtue of evidence some day/year? I'm not saying this happened, it's just hypothetical. IOW, I'm not saying "we'll never know its origin."

It also seems possible to me that a zoonotic source will be pinpointed sometime in the future. Yes, it should have been established by now if it's there, but AFAIK that doesn't mean it won't be in the future.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
31,084
3,954
126
Oof. Yeah. I'm almost 15 months out and almost no smell. Well this sucks. :/

Thanks for the link and tag though. I've not seen this theory before.
I was trying to figure that out. I'd assumed that the loss of smell and taste had to do with the destruction of either taste buds or olfactory sense cells by the virus, but evidently that may not be it. Seems it could be destruction of brain tissue that processes smell/teste sensations.

TBH, it's not death from the virus I have been concerned about for the last year so much as the potential debilitating effects. Even though vaccinated now, I don't figure I'm safe from SARS-CoV-2. I have not seen any evidence or assertions by anyone with credibility that breakthrough cases are inconsequential.

CA officially reopened 3 days ago. I went into Costco Richmond yesterday and EVERYBODY was masked. I asked, I don't believe Costco has a mask-up mandate. I don't mind wearing a mask, never have, never will unless I'm eating or drinking. Even doing aerobic exercise it doesn't bother me.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
37,268
11,699
136
Crap. This might explain why some people's sense of smell haven't fully returned even after covid recovery.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/new-covid-study-hints-at-long-term-loss-of-brain-tissue-dr-scott-gottlieb-warns.html

I think @vi edit mentioned in a thread I read that he got covid and his sense of smell was still messed up even after recovery.
A lot of people who acted like contracting the virus was no big deal because the vast majority survive seriously failed to consider the possibility of stuff like this.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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A lot of people who acted like contracting the virus was no big deal because the vast majority survive seriously failed to consider the possibility of stuff like this.
I mean, people tried to tell them, but it's just been 'la la la; I can't hear you.'
 
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