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NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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Dec 10, 2005
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Saw a brief statement by a woman prominent doctor who's been in the news concerning covid, just a few days ago, saying she thinks there's a good chance that no boosters will be necessary, that the current vaccines will confer reasonable immunity indefinitely, variants included. It's not just the antibodies the vaccines induce, the T cells' memory can last many decades.
There's a good chance that the doctor you speak of is talking out of their butt. There really isn't strong evidence one way or the other regarding long term immunity, given the fact that the virus has only been on the scene for a little over a year, and data on vaccinated individuals is just starting to hit a year, for the early phase trials.

However, based on what we know of other viruses that mutate and have variants running around (eg, influenza), it seems reasonable for governments and companies to continue following patients in the existing Phase III trials, as well as developing potential boosters for some of the more worrisome variants.


---
COVID has been a pretty awful time for reliable scientific communication. Major media outlets lack qualified science writers, they've been quick to pickup on unvetted pre-prints, some of dubious quality, and just overall poor communication of real, meaningful results.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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There's a good chance that the doctor you speak of is talking out of their butt. There really isn't strong evidence one way or the other regarding long term immunity, given the fact that the virus has only been on the scene for a little over a year, and data on vaccinated individuals is just starting to hit a year, for the early phase trials.

However, based on what we know of other viruses that mutate and have variants running around (eg, influenza), it seems reasonable for governments and companies to continue following patients in the existing Phase III trials, as well as developing potential boosters for some of the more worrisome variants.
She certainly didn't say we won't need boosters or that she fully expects that the current vaccinations will provide life long immunity. However, she feels there's considerable hope that no further vaccination will be necessary. Of course, without data, we won't know and the data isn't here yet.

BTW, if her conjecture proves wrong that does not mean she's "talking out of her butt."
 
Dec 10, 2005
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She certainly didn't say we won't need boosters or that she fully expects that the current vaccinations will provide life long immunity. However, she feels there's considerable hope that no further vaccination will be necessary. Of course, without data, we won't know and the data isn't here yet.

BTW, if her conjecture proves wrong that does not mean she's "talking out of her butt."
Maybe it was crass phrasing, but at the end of the day, it's pretty empty conjecture. Biology is complicated and vast, and unless this person is an expert in virology, immunity, or infectious disease, I'd be pretty skeptical of their claims. You might get lifelong immunity to the variant the vaccine was developed against, you might not. We have plenty of examples of vaccines that provide lifelong protection and ones that need boosters, and I don't think it's necessarily clear why that is since immunity is pretty complicated. And even if you do get long-term immunity against the original variant, you'll likely only have partial protection against new variants - kind of like the flu shot in years where they aren't as good; hence the suggestion that boosters may be required.

Perhaps the word "booster" is wrong, since that implies getting the same shot again; more like a one-dose shot to further help your semi-prepped immune system for a distinct variant it hasn't been prepped for.
 
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Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
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Well, I ended up getting the Rona about a month ago...along with the rest of my family...and seemingly along with the rest of Michigan.

My 3-year-old daughter had the worst symptoms—we had to take her to the ER because she woke up from nap clutching her head and screaming. They gave her extra meds and told us to increase NSAID dosages. She recovered remarkably quickly and is back to her old self, but it was a truly terrifying experience.

I feel pretty certain we caught one of the more contagious variants. We have been extremely careful this whole time.
Glad you all have recovered. Any lingering symptoms?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
30,186
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Maybe it was crass phrasing, but at the end of the day, it's pretty empty conjecture. Biology is complicated and vast, and unless this person is an expert in virology, immunity, or infectious disease, I'd be pretty skeptical of their claims. You might get lifelong immunity to the variant the vaccine was developed against, you might not. We have plenty of examples of vaccines that provide lifelong protection and ones that need boosters, and I don't think it's necessarily clear why that is since immunity is pretty complicated. And even if you do get long-term immunity against the original variant, you'll likely only have partial protection against new variants - kind of like the flu shot in years where they aren't as good; hence the suggestion that boosters may be required.

Perhaps the word "booster" is wrong, since that implies getting the same shot again; more like a one-dose shot to further help your semi-prepped immune system for a distinct variant it hasn't been prepped for.
She's actually pretty expert:

Monica Gandhi MD, MPH is Professor of Medicine and Associate Division Chief (Clinical Operations/ Education) of the Division of HIV, Infectious Diseases, and Global Medicine at UCSF/ San Francisco General Hospital.

She's the woman in this video, which is really really impressive:


Here's a report on her saying that boosters may not be necessary:


SAN FRANCISCO -- Pfizer and Moderna vaccines both have been proven to be effective for at least six months. Many Californians are just weeks away from reaching that benchmark left wondering, will I need a booster shot?

"No, I don't think so," said UCSF Dr. Monica Gandhi. "We may not need booster shots."
Aside from the promising trial data, Gandhi says all three COVID-19 vaccines are also producing a high level of T cell immunity, which is effectively fighting variants.

"I'm very hopeful that we won't need these booster vaccines, but if we do, the technology will make this very easy for us to get them in the future if we have outbreaks pop up," she said.
Pfizer and Moderna have both announced the booster shots will be ready by the fall.

"It's important to say public health needs to decide about booster shots, not the heads of these companies making the vaccines," Gandhi said.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Meanwhile our government is only THINKING about stopping flights from India into Canada. Every day, thousands of people from outside the country are pouring in. They never really shut down travel at all here. I guess we may as well become a test bed for the vaccine to test all the variants on it lol.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,196
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Meanwhile our government is only THINKING about stopping flights from India into Canada. Every day, thousands of people from outside the country are pouring in. They never really shut down travel at all here. I guess we may as well become a test bed for the vaccine to test all the variants on it lol.
Sadly, Boris has now belatedly cancelled his planned trade-negotiation trip to India. Would have been a useful test-case to see if someone who'd already had COVID could be reinfected with the new variant that has appeared in India. He's not even useful as a lab rat! Pehaps Trump could be persuaded to take a trip over there? You know, for science!
 
Dec 10, 2005
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She's actually pretty expert:




She's the woman in this video, which is really really impressive:


Here's a report on her saying that boosters may not be necessary:

Thank you for providing the link/name.

I certainly agree with her on the idea that public health authorities should be deciding whether we actually need some tailored boosters, and not actually on the heads of some pharmaceutical company telling us what we should and shouldn't buy. But it's also reasonable to try and develop boosters and continue to test to see a) if they are needed to supplement the first set of shots, and b) if they would be effective against newer variants.

Right now, with ongoing vaccinations, we're in a bit of a waiting game: how long will immunity last, and how effective will it be against newer variants. It seems prudent to at least be developing boosters so that we're not left holding an empty bag if we find out the answers to our questions are quick waning and poor efficacy.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Thank you for providing the link/name.

I certainly agree with her on the idea that public health authorities should be deciding whether we actually need some tailored boosters, and not actually on the heads of some pharmaceutical company telling us what we should and shouldn't buy. But it's also reasonable to try and develop boosters and continue to test to see a) if they are needed to supplement the first set of shots, and b) if they would be effective against newer variants.

Right now, with ongoing vaccinations, we're in a bit of a waiting game: how long will immunity last, and how effective will it be against newer variants. It seems prudent to at least be developing boosters so that we're not left holding an empty bag if we find out the answers to our questions are quick waning and poor efficacy.
Well, you're getting your wish. Both Pfizer and Moderna are working on boosters. How that plays out, we'll have to see. If needed, they will be a big deal. If not, they'll likely fizzle. Or, more probably, they'll develop advanced mRNA vaccines, for people who haven't been vaccinated yet. It's going to be a long time before the whole planet is vaccinated. "Booster" is the wrong word, and I think Dr. Gupta said that. The mRNA makers are working up new mRNA profiles, not just a follow up shot to enhance the protection already conferred, which is what a booster is. The continuing emergence of variants warrants continued modifications to vaccine production. In any case, it may play out that people who have gotten the original formulations are well protected with no further shots necessary.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
30,186
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Woah people dropping dead at home now. Not much details like if this is from a variant of concern or something, but pretty crazy stuff.

That was happening from the beginning. This virus can turn deadly very quickly. You feel sick, you feel very sick, you wake up one day and are feeling better, but you're dead later in the day. I became prepared pretty quickly... I have these things onhand:

Vit C
Vit D
Thermometers
Blood oxygen monitor
Zinc lozenges and drops
HMO membership

And now I'm vaccinated, and better educated. It took months before this virus became even quasi-understood.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,215
3,192
136
That was happening from the beginning. This virus can turn deadly very quickly. You feel sick, you feel very sick, you wake up one day and are feeling better, but you're dead later in the day. I became prepared pretty quickly... I have these things onhand:

Vit C
Vit D
Thermometers
Blood oxygen monitor
Zinc lozenges and drops
HMO membership

And now I'm vaccinated, and better educated. It took months before this virus became even quasi-understood.
No Tylenol suppositories?
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
30,186
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No Tylenol suppositories?
No. I did buy tylenol too, now that you mention it. I must say, however, that I have almost never taken tylenol, in fact I can't remember ever taking it. Perhaps I have, perhaps not. I just saw a video in which Dr. Hansen explained that tylenol may be involved in liver failures in covid cases leading to death. I can usually soldier through pain without taking pills. Even after surgeries. I have taken Vicodin a few times and I think it contains tylenol.

Vicodin might be mistaken as Hycodan. When you pick up your prescription at the pharmacy, be sure you have the right medicine. Do not take with other acetaminophen medicines. This pain reliever has two active ingredients: hydrocodone and acetaminophen (also known as Tylenol, and often abbreviated as APAP).
I bought some Naproxen too, also almost never touch the stuff... I tolerate it better than ibuprofen, when again, I dislike because my stomach doesn't like it. Eh, for me the pain relievers are generally worse than the condition they're supposed to treat.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,215
3,192
136
No. I did buy tylenol too, now that you mention it. I must say, however, that I have almost never taken tylenol, in fact I can't remember ever taking it. Perhaps I have, perhaps not. I just saw a video in which Dr. Hansen explained that tylenol may be involved in liver failures in covid cases leading to death. I can usually soldier through pain without taking pills. Even after surgeries. I have taken Vicodin a few times and I think it contains tylenol.



I bought some Naproxen too, also almost never touch the stuff... I tolerate it better than ibuprofen, when again, I dislike because my stomach doesn't like it. Eh, for me the pain relievers are generally worse than the condition they're supposed to treat.
Tylenol is good for breaking fevers, not just pain.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
5,193
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She's actually pretty expert:




She's the woman in this video, which is really really impressive:


Here's a report on her saying that boosters may not be necessary:

Having been punched in the gut figuratively twice already, once confirmed, once highly suspect, I'm more than willing to vaccinate myself every 6 months ad infinitum than deal with the crippling loss of productivity and mental sharpness that COVID has caused in me. Spending 3-4 months never feeling quite as sharp mentally or physically as before.

78 blood pressure is low for many but I am not comfortable unless I am around 60 and my measurable in a pre-COVID world always had a resting 60 beats per minute.

These statements of long-term immunity is nothing more than a mental sedative.

As much as I don't want to have Pfizer or any of these damn corrupt companies get my money, my hand is forced.

I'll probably chance getting COVID infection #3 because I still have a perverse curiosity to confirm if it can repeat itself. Then if it it does, it's vaccination every 6 months without fail until I die.

I don't get flu shots because I find it is not worth the 1 in 10 million risk in complications when my body can fight it off with no problems, often in two weeks. Whereas with COVID, I'm not at all pleased that for up to a quarter every year, I'm basically weakened, irritable, and limited.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
59,685
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www.uovalor.com
Looks like they lowered age to 55+ for the vaccine here now. Getting there... assuming they are going in mostly 5 year increments, I'm kind of glad I'm turning 35 this May it will get me a little closer lol. The target date for everyone to be able to sign up is July though so I think either way I won't be getting it any time before that. The AZ vaccine is at 40+ now I think.... so there is a chance they might lower that sooner than the others. Because of the blood clot risk it would not be my first choice but if it becomes available before the other ones I may go for it anyway. The risk is very small. I also do wonder if the people that did get blood clots had other medical issues, or were on certain medications that may have interacted weirdly.

Ask me 6 months ago and I was more on the fence about the vaccine and wanted to wait longer but I was also figuring things would slow down as far as the virus goes, and not get worse. At this point, give me the shot.
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Right, but fever is the body's way a fighting pathogens, so maybe not such a good idea... something to think about.
While true, I'd argue that only applies to sub-100F* fevers, or "low-grade fevers." The vast majority of human pathogens just don't even tolerate much above that, and the ones that do, tend to tolerate temps well above what our own body can handle. Yet that doesn't always stop the body from keeping the thermostat pegged at max.
Also remember fever isn't the only tool the immune system has to fight infection.
The body can be triggered into committing to runaway efforts and autoimmune responses in various ways, think back to early discussions of possible causes of lung damage in the pandemic, where the thought was that it was sometimes caused by cytokine storms and possibly bradykinin storms.

Given the above, it remains fully recommended to try and bring higher-grade fevers down to manageable levels, because the body can't always be trusted to mind an appropriate immune response.

*And sorry not sorry, I'm all for metric conversion for everything but this stubborn American refuses centigrade for ambient air and bio temps at this point... the precision is welcome when dealing with the limited ranges of comfort and human --if not all biological-- health. And worse, air temp has all those other ambient factors that can make a temp like 70F not mean much objectively. ;)
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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I'd be happy to use centigrade if everyone else would. But right now, I'm not comfortable with it simply because where I live, everybody talks F. I don't know why it makes much difference. Metric in general would make sense, I suppose, but when in Rome you do as the Romans do. It's 63F in my back yard right now, I have a good feeling for what that would feel like if I go out there. If you tell me it's 20C, I don't know.
 

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