• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

Page 508 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
I saw something about a llama and some researcher in Texas finding the most effective COVID treatment. I'm kinda scared to read about it as I'm worried its a right wing news source declaring that fucking llamas cures COVID.



Its probably titled "I'm RIGHT, he's wrong case #1043984595035809509435890" and includeds fecal samples (both his and K1052).

What a clownfucking dipshit SVNLA is. Any guess what it stands for? SuckingVenomNinjaLollipopAnus? SphincterVialsNoneLeftAnymore?
I think the llama is where one of the antibody treatments originally came from.i remember reading about it a long time ago.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,916
1,362
126
The local news ran a several minutes clip with all the names and pictures of people that passed away this year (not all are COVID19 related) and it is sad. So many of them are gone.

In the "not too depressing news" section.....Airlines are trying to make some money by expanding their cold storage systems and fast delivery methods for the vaccines to make end meet until travel is back to normal.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2005
20,998
2,468
126
You do understand that is the point of DPA, right? It should've been used 10 months ago to start getting the equipment purchased. And yes, you flow DPA down hill to skip the line and redirect materials and equipment. That's the whole point.
I think you're overestimating the ability of the DPA to quickly bring cGMP manufacturing online.

It's not like there are a lot of interchangeable parts that can just be flipped from making one drug to another. On top of that, you need the QC to fully certify each new producer to ensure quality.

This isn't like retooling a vehicle line to building some relatively simple machines.

The DPA could probably help with some things, but it wouldn't be anywhere close to a panacea for the vaccine production.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uclaLabrat

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
I think you're overestimating the ability of the DPA to quickly bring cGMP manufacturing online.

It's not like there are a lot of interchangeable parts that can just be flipped from making one drug to another. On top of that, you need the QC to fully certify each new producer to ensure quality.

This isn't like retooling a vehicle line to building some relatively simple machines.

The DPA could probably help with some things, but it wouldn't be anywhere close to a panacea for the vaccine production.
I don't think it would be a panacea. But there are already certified equipment manufacturers that are likely producing lower priority equipment. DPA allows them to violate their contracts and produce the higher priority equipment.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,189
845
126
I think you're overestimating the ability of the DPA to quickly bring cGMP manufacturing online.

It's not like there are a lot of interchangeable parts that can just be flipped from making one drug to another. On top of that, you need the QC to fully certify each new producer to ensure quality.

This isn't like retooling a vehicle line to building some relatively simple machines.

The DPA could probably help with some things, but it wouldn't be anywhere close to a panacea for the vaccine production.
Also, a year ago would've been premature when we couldn't possibly know what we might need for what vaccines.

Example: No one was working on a mRNA vaccine for anything in 2019/2020 and even once they were it was unclear if they would beat traditional vaccines. Months later they were suddenly the frontrunners, but that was only a few months ago, really. If we somehow knew a year ago that mRNA vaccines would need this enzyme stuff that was plentiful even with boosted demand for the test kits that use it, it still would've been premature since we didn't know if that kind of vaccine even had a chance to reach the market. On top of that, they clearly use different stabilizer enzyme cocktails so what if they ramped up production of the wrong one? Sometimes it has to wait.

We don't even know if they need the DPA for that now, since we don't even know what kind of testing uses them. It could be a more niche test, like the at-home self-test for antibodies that isn't terribly accurate. It may make more sense to use the DPA to boost an alternative test that doesn't use the enzymes, freeing up enzymes for mRNA production. Just seems a little presumptive to assume we could've seen this exact issue coming a year ago and used the DPA to solve it.

Also, a year ago we were told there was no evidence of human-to-human spread and we were still months away from it being declared a pandemic. Definitely premature to invoke the DPA with what we were being told by China and the WHO back then.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,610
3,378
136
So far, I stated my assertion, backed it up with not one, but two well know news sources. Did I attack or call him with nasty names and labels such as "stupid", "fxxggot", "anal sex", "moron"...and on and on? Nope, nada, zip.

Or I could call him all the nasty names above and more and then declare myself as "intellectual superior"...like you and your ilks have been doing so many times, eh? LOL.

Don't want to get call out with your bullcrap and lies, then don't do it and then whine and bitch about the imagine "file" when you got schooled in public with your own words in full context.

For those that are not familiar with zin and his ilks, just spend sometime in Politics and News (P&N) and see for yourself, no need to believe what I say now. The truth shall set you free.

Case in point....Here is just a very small sample from one of them. from this page alone ......"What a clownfucking dipshit" ..."Anus" .." Sphincter" ... Way to debate..lol.

Yes, big imagine "file" there. How sad and pathetic.

This exact quote from a newbie...
Valium dude, lots of Valium.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,865
11,614
146
Also, a year ago would've been premature when we couldn't possibly know what we might need for what vaccines.

Example: No one was working on a mRNA vaccine for anything in 2019/2020 and even once they were it was unclear if they would beat traditional vaccines. Months later they were suddenly the frontrunners, but that was only a few months ago, really. If we somehow knew a year ago that mRNA vaccines would need this enzyme stuff that was plentiful even with boosted demand for the test kits that use it, it still would've been premature since we didn't know if that kind of vaccine even had a chance to reach the market. On top of that, they clearly use different stabilizer enzyme cocktails so what if they ramped up production of the wrong one? Sometimes it has to wait.

We don't even know if they need the DPA for that now, since we don't even know what kind of testing uses them. It could be a more niche test, like the at-home self-test for antibodies that isn't terribly accurate. It may make more sense to use the DPA to boost an alternative test that doesn't use the enzymes, freeing up enzymes for mRNA production. Just seems a little presumptive to assume we could've seen this exact issue coming a year ago and used the DPA to solve it.

Also, a year ago we were told there was no evidence of human-to-human spread and we were still months away from it being declared a pandemic. Definitely premature to invoke the DPA with what we were being told by China and the WHO back then.
Sure, but there's been steps along the way, it's not start a year ago or nothing. Do you think alerting our national leadership would've done any good, even 8 months ago, 6 months ago? I doubt it.

Even if the DPA couldn't have changed the status currently, accurate counts would help.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,610
3,378
136
Example: No one was working on a mRNA vaccine for anything in 2019/2020 and even once they were it was unclear if they would beat traditional vaccines.
FWIW, mRNA vaccines go back to at least 2017 - used for creating Ebola vaccines. That's was the start point, IIRC, for using mRNA for COV-2-SARS and accelerated the development of these vaccines.
I don't know where talk of this supposed 'enzyme' shortage came from - a quick search yields no results.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,610
3,378
136
Plants that follow and are cGMP (certified Good manufacturing process) for pharmaceuticals can take years of planning and building. The whole supply chain needs to be cGMP too. Plus, this type of industrial scale manufacturing requires highly skilled labor for both manufacturing and quality control. Not something you can just randomly outsource. If any of these companies had the ability to expand production more, even using contractors, they would.
Having worked at Lonza at their east coast facility in NH, they have the personnel, procedures, etc., all ready in place. I'm sure they have increased the number of technicians and production capacity at whatever plants are manufacturing the Moderna. I worked in IT an still went through a week of training which focused heavily on cGMP - especially digital and electronic custody chains and repositories (since, with admin privs, I could screw it up). The equipment in the QA department blew my mind (and I had to wear special PPE to swap out systems there to protect my self and protect any samples from me!).
 
Dec 10, 2005
20,998
2,468
126
I don't think it would be a panacea. But there are already certified equipment manufacturers that are likely producing lower priority equipment. DPA allows them to violate their contracts and produce the higher priority equipment.
It's not just certified equipment manufacturing though. It's getting facilities certified, building up the knowledge for the manufacturing process (which at-scale manufacturing was basically just invented for Pfizer's vaccine), and getting the raw materials from certified producers. Even if you could get a contract organization in to help, which Moderna has basically bought up all the capacity for, it takes time to get procedures right at each facility. It's not just some copy-paste job that's easy to fulfill. Maybe the DPA could have helped a little with procuring some raw materials, but I don't think there is much cGMP manufacturing just sitting idle.

There have been some good commentary on it from people in the industry:
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337939562069258241
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337939889673781248
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337940340896980992
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337940863398207490

Having worked at Lonza at their east coast facility in NH, they have the personnel, procedures, etc., all ready in place. I'm sure they have increased the number of technicians and production capacity at whatever plants are manufacturing the Moderna. I worked in IT an still went through a week of training which focused heavily on cGMP - especially digital and electronic custody chains and repositories (since, with admin privs, I could screw it up). The equipment in the QA department blew my mind (and I had to wear special PPE to swap out systems there to protect my self and protect any samples from me!).
Yeah, you can increase capacity within a facility to a degree. I just don't think it's that easy though to expand outside of the facility though for the reasons I mentioned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uclaLabrat

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
It's not just certified equipment manufacturing though. It's getting facilities certified, building up the knowledge for the manufacturing process (which at-scale manufacturing was basically just invented for Pfizer's vaccine), and getting the raw materials from certified producers. Even if you could get a contract organization in to help, which Moderna has basically bought up all the capacity for, it takes time to get procedures right at each facility. It's not just some copy-paste job that's easy to fulfill. Maybe the DPA could have helped a little with procuring some raw materials, but I don't think there is much cGMP manufacturing just sitting idle.

There have been some good commentary on it from people in the industry:
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337939562069258241
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337939889673781248
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337940340896980992
https://twitter.com/Chemjobber/status/1337940863398207490


Yeah, you can increase capacity within a facility to a degree. I just don't think it's that easy though to expand outside of the facility though for the reasons I mentioned.
I'm not debating any of that as it is today. This could've likely been different today if NPA had been used in March. And it isn't just the vaccine manufacturing, the whole supply chain and distribution. New equipment could've been built and installed in existing factories, etc.

This is just like all the people in March saying "Vaccines take ten years, you can't rush it. Meanwhile in WW2 we could build a cargo ship in 24 hours. It's amazing what you can do with the right incentives and hammers.
 
Last edited:

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,797
20,653
136
FWIW, mRNA vaccines go back to at least 2017 - used for creating Ebola vaccines. That's was the start point, IIRC, for using mRNA for COV-2-SARS and accelerated the development of these vaccines.
I don't know where talk of this supposed 'enzyme' shortage came from - a quick search yields no results.
right. well, also right and wrong. you are both wright and wrong.

yes, people have been working on mRNA vaccines for a very long time--conceptually for decades, in use for half that time in basic research, in humans...never until ~4? months ago, anywhere, I believe.

eBola was one of the first major promising use cases for them in humans, but if IIRC, it's just too virulent of a disease to ever get to real pandemic level, and thus, well, the incentive for funding such revolutionary tools has always dried up because it has only ever been tied up in private book planning. Got to please them quarterly shareholder brains! yessir! They KNOW EVERYTHING about how how humanity and well, the world actually works. yessir!
 
Dec 10, 2005
20,998
2,468
126
I'm not debating any of that as it is today. This could've likely been different today if NPA had been used in March. And it isn't just the vaccine manufacturing, the whole supply chain and distribution. New equipment could've been built and installed in existing factories, etc.

This is just like all the people in March saying "Vaccines take ten years, you can't rush it. Meanwhile in WW2 we could build a cargo ship in 24 hours. It's amazing what you can do with the right incentives and hammers.
How do you pick which vaccine might be the winner in March? They all need different ingredients that might come from a limited number of facilities overall.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
How do you pick which vaccine might be the winner in March? They all need different ingredients that might come from a limited number of facilities overall.
Seems we picked 5 to go with back in May. But there are basically 3 front runner technology types, so I would've started there.

I'm not saying it's easy, but government is supposed to be there for the hard problems.
 

manly

Diamond Member
Jan 25, 2000
8,834
435
126
Seems we picked 5 to go with back in May. But there are basically 3 front runner technology types, so I would've started there.

I'm not saying it's easy, but government is supposed to be there for the hard problems.
Moderna had the vaccine on Jan. 13th! ;)

We Had the Vaccine the Whole Time

To be clear, I'm not saying vaccine trials and authorization could have been faster/better. It's impressive how quickly this has happened, and the article suggests this provides a blueprint for future rapid development. And obviously you still have production and distribution. The old cliche is that vaccines don't save lives; vaccinations do.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
Moderna had the vaccine on Jan. 13th! ;)

We Had the Vaccine the Whole Time

To be clear, I'm not saying vaccine trials and authorization could have been faster/better. It's impressive how quickly this has happened, and the article suggests this provides a blueprint for future rapid development. And obviously you still have production and distribution. The old cliche is that vaccines don't save lives; vaccinations do.
Yeah, Moderna was basically handpicked by the NIH to be a front runner in a pandemic vaccine, before anyone had ever heard of COVID. They delivered their first doses to NIH in Feb, and started phases in March. With BioNTech (later with Pfizer) also a very early front runner. Using NPA to bulk up mRNA manufacturing capacity seems like it would've been a good idea. Using NPA to demand production schedules would also be a good use for it now.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,916
1,362
126
S. Korea has over 1,000 new cases. Three days in a row. The government is cracking down.
 

Artorias

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,433
589
136

Lol cant make this shit up.

"In the Pfizer contract it's very clear: 'we're not responsible for any side effects.' If you turn into a crocodile, it's your problem," Bolsonaro said on Thursday. "If you become superhuman, if a woman starts to grow a beard or if a man starts to speak with an effeminate voice, they will not have anything to do with it," he said, referring to the drug manufacturers.
:rolleyes:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Red Squirrel

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
59,673
8,595
126
www.uovalor.com
Another reason to like Chapman's Icecream. They are known for doing good stuff like this. They treat their employees really well too.


I'm just picturing ice cream trucks with the music going around handing out vaccines now (at least for the ones that don't require super low temp). I joke... but that could actually be arranged I think if they have another vehicle follow with medical staff to actually administer them. Not sure how involved the vaccine is to get but when I would get the flu shot when I worked at the hospital it was pretty much a 2 minute thing we did while standing up so it could in theory be done right outside.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
59,673
8,595
126
www.uovalor.com

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,210
3,188
136
Another reason to like Chapman's Icecream. They are known for doing good stuff like this. They treat their employees really well too.


I'm just picturing ice cream trucks with the music going around handing out vaccines now (at least for the ones that don't require super low temp). I joke... but that could actually be arranged I think if they have another vehicle follow with medical staff to actually administer them. Not sure how involved the vaccine is to get but when I would get the flu shot when I worked at the hospital it was pretty much a 2 minute thing we did while standing up so it could in theory be done right outside.
I know this is Canada, but this is a perfect example of something the NPA should've been used for. Instead of random companies going an buying up stock of freezers, the government could've come up with a real plan and used the NPA to put freezers in the right spots and prioritized these shipments and cut in line in front of all other orders.

I think it is great Chapmans wants to help, but if they are not called into action those are potentially freezers that didn't go somewhere else with a higher need.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY