NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

[allisolm]

I'm a fan of vaccines, but we simply don't have the long-term data on the COVID vaccine, which worries me. I had invasive surgery back in the 80's, was doped up with heavy antibiotics (before they knew the issues with that approach), and couldn't eat food for like 10 years as a result, so I'm a little on the wary side about things with no documented long-term results...

The only way to get long-term results is to wait for however many years that "long-term" is. Are you suggesting that people just not get vaccinated for 5 or 10 years and let this disease continue on as it is?

 

[Kaido]

The only way to get long-term results is to wait for however many years that "long-term" is. Are you suggesting that people just not get vaccinated for 5 or 10 years and let this disease continue on as it is?

That's the dilemma. We've gotten a lot better at making medicines, and making them quickly in a safer manner. Plus we had a large sample pool of people to test on, which is historically pretty unusual, which helped to speed things up. But I also don't want to see a repeat of thalidomide, or of my own experience of having major health issues as a result of the unknown long-term consequences. I was messed up for over 20 years as a result of the antibiotics I was given, and am now on an experimental medicine that lets me digest stuff like dairy & gluten again (yay pizza!) that only became available a few years ago, which was literally life-changing for me. So I'm all for vaccines, but we just don't know the long-term results, which is a bit worrisome given my own personal experience.

I think it's probably better to take the vaccine & avoid a further death toll. We're just about to cross 300,000 American deaths, which is insane, as well as over 15 million confirmed COVID cases in America alone. A good strategy may be to inoculate healthcare workers & people older than 45 years old to begin with, as those are the people getting hit the hardest with the virus according to the latest CDC data for the United States. I'm on the fence about taking it myself. My immune system is garbage, so there's a risk if I take it, but there's probably a much, much higher risk of negative outcomes if I contract the coronavirus, especially as I have asthma on top of that. I put in the effort to get enough sleep, exercise, eat decently, etc. but I'm stuck with the meat-robot hardware I have, and neither option (getting a vaccine or dying from COVID) is particularly appealing to me lol.

 

[CZroe]

Do you honestly think the potential long-term effects from the vaccine are riskier than the potential long-term effects of the virus? ...because, like it or not, you are getting one or the other and neither meets the standard you seem to want.

You are either a guinea pig for the new horrors of viral evolution or a guinea pig for something known to be a safer/better alternative, at least. At least one has a measure of control and testing.

 

[JujuFish]

and couldn't eat food for like 10 years as a result

Whoa, what? Did you have to drink your nutrition? Sorry if that sounded stupid or ignorant; I'm genuinely curious.

 

[CZroe]

Whoa, what? Did you have to drink your nutrition? Sorry if that sounded stupid or ignorant; I'm genuinely curious.

He's blaming his lactose and wheat gluten intolerance on the loss of his microbiome gut bacteria from a course of antibiotics. This is what fecal matter transplants are for... though I can't say I've heard of the microbiome being blamed for lactose intolerance before. I figured you either made the enzyme through adulthood or you didn't according to your genetics. Bacteria in your gut consuming lactose instead of your own enzymes is what CAUSES lactose intolerance. Beano and similar products give you the enzyme you need to digest another undigestable carbohydrate (in beans) through dietary supplementation so maybe there is the possibility of a similar lactose intolerance supplement to correct this without squirting someone else's poo up your bum.

 

[IronWing]

He's blaming his lactose and wheat gluten intolerance on the loss of his microbiome gut bacteria from a course of antibiotics. This is what fecal matter transplants are for... though I can't say I've heard of the microbiome being blamed for lactose intolerance before. I figured you either made the enzyme through adulthood or you didn't according to your genetics. Bacteria in your gut consuming lactose instead of your own enzymes is what CAUSES lactose intolerance. Beano and similar products give you the enzyme you need to digest another undigestable carbohydrate (in beans) through dietary supplementation so maybe there is the possibility of a similar lactose intolerance supplement to correct this without squirting someone else's poo up your bum.

Nope, I became lactose intolerant after a azithromycin prescription. The damage to my gut flora from that three day Z-pak lasted months with the lactose intolerance being permanent. I tried multiple probiotics to restore the good gut bugs and it took a very long time.

 

[Kaido]

Whoa, what? Did you have to drink your nutrition? Sorry if that sounded stupid or ignorant; I'm genuinely curious.

Nah, I just couldn't digest certain things very well for awhile (dairy, gluten, corn). I didn't know that for about 10 years after surgery/antibiotics, so I just kind of felt terrible all the time & had really low energy all throughout grade school & into college. Then I picked up on the food thing (time delay for effects after eating, was very difficult to pinpoint - did an MRI, CAT, endoscopy, colonoscopy, allergy tests, saw natural doctors, you name it with no luck), starting with milk, then wheat, then corn, so I was off those for another 10 years. Corn was definitely the hardest, as it's in literally everything. A few years ago, I got tested for SIBO & went through a variety of medicines to try to manage it. Basically the medicine nukes your small intestine to reset it. They're testing surgeries to fix the root issue, but I definitely don't want to be a beta tester for that LOL. The chain is basically 1, whatever your root cause is (my trigger was heavy antibiotics post-surgery in the 80's, which damaged my GI tract), 2, which causes low stomach acid, 3, which causes (and regenerates) SIBO, and 4, managing it based on what works for you.

It's Russian roulette as to what works, and not everything works permanently. I'm fortunate that I can take some horse pills for a couple weeks every couple of months & it works more often than not. Some people respond to diet (FODMAPS), to medicine, to surgery, or to nothing. I learned how to cook & also made a lot of weird foods over the years & tried a variety of ways of eating (keto, paleo, vegan, etc.), and once I got diagnosed properly & got on a treatment path that worked for me, I was able to start cooking normally again. That's one of the reasons I have the Kitchen Overlord tag here...I can eat food again now (YAY PIZZA) & started cooking with technology (Instant Pot, Sous Vide, etc.) because I am very lazy & want pushbutton dinners, hahaha.

Obviously, there is a difference between antibiotics & vaccines, and a lot of progress has been made since the 1980's in the world of medicine, but based on my own personal experience, I have concerns about the long-term side effects. The bottom line is that it's a question mark because we just don't know, despite how much faith & hope people have in it. That doesn't exclude taking it, nor am I saying we should drop it off the radar, but just highlighting that it's something to be aware of & concerned about. We've done short-term testing & data modeling, but until we know the results over time, the bottom line is that it's a risk. Most likely better than dying from COVID tho!

 

[CZroe]

...
Obviously, there is a difference between antibiotics & vaccines, and a lot of progress has been made since the 1980's in the world of medicine, but based on my own personal experience, I have concerns about the long-term side effects. The bottom line is that it's a question mark because we just don't know, despite how much faith & hope people have in it. That doesn't exclude taking it, nor am I saying we should drop it off the radar, but just highlighting that it's something to be aware of & concerned about. We've done short-term testing & data modeling, but until we know the results over time, the bottom line is that it's a risk. Most likely better than dying from COVID tho!

Most likely better than recovering from COVID too. Your choice isn't between getting the vaccine or not, it's between getting the virus or not.

...and the safety of the virus is equally unproven long-term while also being proven more dangerous short-term. The choice is clear.

 

[Kaido]

Nope, I became lactose intolerant after a azithromycin prescription. The damage to my gut flora from that three day Z-pak lasted months with the lactose intolerance being permanent. I tried multiple probiotics to restore the good gut bugs and it took a very long time.

If you're still goofed up, see if they'll hook you up with a 2-week regiment of rifaximin. It's basically a nuke for your small intestine, which lets it rebuild healthy gut bacteria.

 

[Svnla]

If you plan to travel by air to outside the US like myself, you would have to vaccinate to fly sooner or later.

Qantas to require Covid vaccinations for international flights | CNN Travel

.

 

[JujuFish]

Nope, I became lactose intolerant after a azithromycin prescription.

On a random side note, azithromycin is the only thing I know I'm allergic to.

 

[CZroe]

If you plan to travel by air to outside the US like myself, you would have to vaccinate to fly sooner or later.

Qantas to require Covid vaccinations for international flights | CNN Travel

.

I wouldn't want it any other way. Pretty sure they will all follow suit by the time availability is no longer an excuse.

 

[Kaido]

Most likely better than recovering from COVID too. Your choice isn't between getting the vaccine or not, it's between getting the virus or not.

...and the safety of the virus is equally unproven long-term while also being proven more dangerous short-term. The choice is clear.

One of the things I've struggled with as a result of my health issues has been anxiety. One of the models I've come up with for dealing with it is called the "Anxiety Boomerang". This is where my anxiety runs away from me by creating a specific possible future awful scenario, and then comes back to me & makes me feel like there's only one possible solution to it, which makes feel forced into tunnel-vision mode, when in reality there are multiple options to discuss. I think we have to be careful about taking an Internet-armchair research detective "one & done" approach of finding the "perfect" solution & then being done thinking about it, when we can side-step the boomerang effect by being open to more possibilities & examining additional options.

In this case, I'd prefer not to get COVID at all, but I'm pretty sure all of America is going to get it at some point in the future. Based on my own personal health history, I'm a little wary of medicinal solutions...but I'm also concerned, as I'm in a risk category with asthma & a crappy immune system. That doesn't mean I'm anti-vax, nor does it mean that we should just let people die while we wait for long-term results - just that a cautionary approach would be prudent. It's easy to let my anxiety drive the bus & tell me things are monolithic, which in this case would be that the only "reasonable" option would be giving everyone in the country a first-pass vaccine, but there are additional options to explore to roll it out & test it. And to your point, there are absolutely a LOT of possible long-term side-effects from the virus:

COVID-19: Long-term effects

Learn about the possible long-term effects of COVID-19.

www.mayoclinic.org

The top ones include:

1. Organ damage
2. Blood clot/vessel problems
3. Mood, fatigue, and brain fog issues

My brother, who is a pretty healthy dude (well outside any major target range - never smoked, in great shape, zero underlying health conditions, etc.), got COVID not too long ago. He had a rough go at it, losing his voice for over 2 weeks, and it took him over 3 weeks to recover, and he's still fighting fatigue weeks/months later. I had another friend get diagnosed recently, and his doctor said that he will only have 3 months of immunity before he can get it again. Originally they thought it was permanent immunity, then 6 months, and now 3 months, apparently. So a vaccine with quarterly booster shots may be the way to go. We've gotten a lot better since the thalidomide days of babies being born with flipper arms down the road, but that's not to say there are zero risks involved. Based on what I've been through...I have concerns. Taking the vaccine is a serious question for me, as medicine basically wrecked my life for a long period of time, while on the other hand, I'm in the higher-risk category for negative COVID effects due to my health situation.

Kind of sounds like a good time to move to a cabin in the woods lol.

 

[Kaido]

He's blaming his lactose and wheat gluten intolerance on the loss of his microbiome gut bacteria from a course of antibiotics. This is what fecal matter transplants are for... though I can't say I've heard of the microbiome being blamed for lactose intolerance before. I figured you either made the enzyme through adulthood or you didn't according to your genetics. Bacteria in your gut consuming lactose instead of your own enzymes is what CAUSES lactose intolerance. Beano and similar products give you the enzyme you need to digest another undigestable carbohydrate (in beans) through dietary supplementation so maybe there is the possibility of a similar lactose intolerance supplement to correct this without squirting someone else's poo up your bum.

In my particular situation, it's caused by SIBO, which is recurring due to low stomach acid, which is caused by damage to my GI tract. Right now, there's an experimental surgery available, but I really don't want to go through that again, especially as it's not proven yet. At the time, I was unable to digest all parts of milk, not just lactose. I couldn't do lactose, casein, or whey. One of the side effects was panic attacks, which are just awful things to experience. Gluten was also an issue - gave me IBS & horrible anxiety. Corn gave me headaches, migraines, and made me feel like I swallowed a combination of knives & gravel. Pretty much I just felt crummy all the time. So my recurrence was due to broken internal hardware, which lead to recurrence, despite effective short-term treatments.

Fecal matter transplants (FMT's) are available, but are very high-risk. It's not like changing batteries in a flashlight; it's an extremely complex flora transfer. It's gotten to the point where the FDA has issued a safety alert about FTM's because people have died as a result of developing invasive infections:

Safety Communication on Use of FMT and MDROs

The Food and Drug Administration is informing health care providers and patients of the potential risk of serious or life-threatening infections with the use of fecal microbiota for transplantation (FMT).

www.fda.gov

Plus, for me, it'd just come back anyway, as my internal digestion motherboard was damaged, so it's just like putting a band-aid on the problem. Oddly enough, they don't recommend probiotics, as they either have a neutral effect or make things worse. The course I'm on now basically does a scorched-earth policy every couple of months on my small intestine, which allows the good gut bacteria to regrow. I've tested various diets over the years to see what impact it has on regrowth time, but haven't found any correlation. Basically, that part of my GI tract is just fried, so it's a maintenance thing for me rather than a one-shot-and-done type of thing.

 

[K1052]

Natural immunity is a bit of a crapshoot but doesn't look shorter than 9 months (and counting) for most people. There have been a handful of reinfections in tens of millions of cases. Hopefully vaccines last a year or two before needing a booster, maybe they last longer but we'll see.

I'm taking the vaccine as soon as I can possibly get it due to possible long term impacts form COVID. I'm very unlikely to die from the infection outright but don't want to find out I've got COVID caused organ failure somewhere down the road in 5-10-15 years.

 

[CZroe]

In this case, I'd prefer not to get COVID at all, but I'm pretty sure all of America is going to get it at some point in the future. Based on my own personal health history, I'm a little wary of medicinal solutions...but I'm also concerned, as I'm in a risk category with asthma & a crappy immune system. That doesn't mean I'm anti-vax, nor does it mean that we should just let people die while we wait for long-term results - just that a cautionary approach would be prudent.

Right, and when you look at this rationally the cautionary approach is absolutely the one where you take the vaccine. Kind of my point here. Getting the virus instead is the opposite of being cautionary, and short of taking the vaccine or going full-on cave hermit you will have very little control over that. It isn't throwing caution to the wind to accept that the vaccine is the smartest option... it's accepting that it genuinely is equal or less likely to have those long-term concerns than the virus itself with the added benefit of being less risky in the short term. That's a win with another potential win/draw, as opposed to lose and lose/draw if you get the virus instead.

Win now and Win/Draw later.
Lose now and Lose/Draw later.

One is clearly better than the other. The "new life as a cave hermit" option is likely inferior to both and not guaranteed to work anyway.

 

[destrekor]

He's blaming his lactose and wheat gluten intolerance on the loss of his microbiome gut bacteria from a course of antibiotics. This is what fecal matter transplants are for... though I can't say I've heard of the microbiome being blamed for lactose intolerance before. I figured you either made the enzyme through adulthood or you didn't according to your genetics. Bacteria in your gut consuming lactose instead of your own enzymes is what CAUSES lactose intolerance. Beano and similar products give you the enzyme you need to digest another undigestable carbohydrate (in beans) through dietary supplementation so maybe there is the possibility of a similar lactose intolerance supplement to correct this without squirting someone else's poo up your bum.

In my particular situation, it's caused by SIBO, which is recurring due to low stomach acid, which is caused by damage to my GI tract. Right now, there's an experimental surgery available, but I really don't want to go through that again, especially as it's not proven yet. At the time, I was unable to digest all parts of milk, not just lactose. I couldn't do lactose, casein, or whey. One of the side effects was panic attacks, which are just awful things to experience. Gluten was also an issue - gave me IBS & horrible anxiety. Corn gave me headaches, migraines, and made me feel like I swallowed a combination of knives & gravel. Pretty much I just felt crummy all the time. So my recurrence was due to broken internal hardware, which lead to recurrence, despite effective short-term treatments.

Fecal matter transplants (FMT's) are available, but are very high-risk. It's not like changing batteries in a flashlight; it's an extremely complex flora transfer. It's gotten to the point where the FDA has issued a safety alert about FTM's because people have died as a result of developing invasive infections:

Safety Communication on Use of FMT and MDROs

The Food and Drug Administration is informing health care providers and patients of the potential risk of serious or life-threatening infections with the use of fecal microbiota for transplantation (FMT).

www.fda.gov

Plus, for me, it'd just come back anyway, as my internal digestion motherboard was damaged, so it's just like putting a band-aid on the problem. Oddly enough, they don't recommend probiotics, as they either have a neutral effect or make things worse. The course I'm on now basically does a scorched-earth policy every couple of months on my small intestine, which allows the good gut bacteria to regrow. I've tested various diets over the years to see what impact it has on regrowth time, but haven't found any correlation. Basically, that part of my GI tract is just fried, so it's a maintenance thing for me rather than a one-shot-and-done type of thing.

This may be relevant:

Can changing the microbiome reverse lactose intolerance?

You may think that your milk-drinking, ice cream-licking days are behind you as you battle the discomfort of lactose intolerance. But there maybe be a way to reverse the situation.

theconversation.com

Seems perhaps some gut changes, or in general environmental changes, can induce epigenetic modification.
https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-014629 (this was cited in the article above)

 

[Captante]

I'm very unlikely to die from the infection

I figure only the good die young so I should be fine!

 

[Svnla]

Still praying & hoping that I was wrong.

Not much else to do but cya.

Sir, the mask is there to to cover your face (nose/mouth), not your behind. LOL..

 

[Captante]

Sir, the mask is there to to cover your face (nose/mouth), not your behind. LOL..

Not so fast!

China flight attendants advised to wear diapers for Covid protection

 

[Kaido]

Natural immunity is a bit of a crapshoot but doesn't look shorter than 9 months (and counting) for most people. There have been a handful of reinfections in tens of millions of cases. Hopefully vaccines last a year or two before needing a booster, maybe they last longer but we'll see.

I'm taking the vaccine as soon as I can possibly get it due to possible long term impacts form COVID. I'm very unlikely to die from the infection outright but don't want to find out I've got COVID caused organ failure somewhere down the road in 5-10-15 years.

Yeah, fortunately the tracked reinfection rates have been super minimal:

COVID-19 reinfection tracker

NOTE: This page is no longer being updated. The table below shows confirmed cases of COVID-19 reinfection. The first confirmed case of reinfection was reported in Hong Kong in late August 2020, and 543 other cases were reported over the next year, along with nearly 180,000 suspected cases...

bnonews.com

 

[Kaido]

This may be relevant:

Can changing the microbiome reverse lactose intolerance?

You may think that your milk-drinking, ice cream-licking days are behind you as you battle the discomfort of lactose intolerance. But there maybe be a way to reverse the situation.

theconversation.com

Seems perhaps some gut changes, or in general environmental changes, can induce epigenetic modification.
https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-014629 (this was cited in the article above)

Nice, cheese DLC!

 

[pmv]

Perhaps it depends on your location, but googling the words "running out ICU beds" produces results too scary to look at.

It's not so much that you get dozens of news item hits, but more that they aren't different sources reporting about the same places, but different reports about places all over the US and the world. It's the sheer geographical scope over which that same news story appears that is very disturbing.

"The US", locations all over that country, Sweden, Germany, "Europe" as a whole, Manchester, London, Belgium...the list of locations facing the same crisis point goes on and on.

 

[H T C]

Perhaps it depends on your location, but googling the words "running out ICU beds" produces results too scary to look at.

It's not so much that you get dozens of news item hits, but more that they aren't different sources reporting about the same places, but different reports about places all over the US and the world. It's the sheer geographical scope over which that same news story appears that is very disturbing.

"The US", locations all over that country, Sweden, Germany, "Europe" as a whole, Manchester, London, Belgium...the list of locations facing the same crisis point goes on and on.

The whole reason countries opted to enforce lockdowns in the 1st place was NEVER because of the deaths this virus causes: it was because of the hospital's capacity or, to be more precise, the lack of it.

No country has enough hospital capacity, be it physical space or medical personnel, to take care of the mass number of patients once cases reach a certain point, and the lockdowns were enacted with delaying that point for as long as possible or, better yet, not reach it @ all. The main problem of this virus is that people that require hospitalization tend to be hospitalized for EXTENDED periods of time and that, coupled with the fact that so many people require hospitalization is what ends up crippling the hospitals. What happened in Italy's Bergamo region back in March was but "a taste" of what CAN HAPPEN if this virus isn't contained enough.

New Zealand showed us how a lockdown CAN work effectively by using it with some of the most restrictive measures put in place thus far: their "secret" was to enact the lockdown when case numbers were STILL low, and thus much easier to contain, meaning their lockdown was in place for a short time. Other countries have tried to do the same but failed to achieve the same level of success because they waited for case numbers to rise too much BEFORE the lockdowns, thus having them last longer in order to bring numbers to a more manageable level, with all the economic consequences that carries.

 

[pmv]

With pitch-black humour, the second hit I get with Google is a typical hurumphing pompous low-watt bulb article from the Telegraph back in October smugly declaring "Don't believe the scare stories about hospitals running out of ICU beds...". It's preceded by a more up-to-date one declaring US hospitals are now... running out of ICU beds, and followed by pages and pages, and pages of news stories saying the same about places all over the globe... 'US hospitals' 'Germany' 'Australian hospitals', Manchester, London, Tulsa, "Europe", Illinois, Sweden, Northern Ireland, Belgium, San Joaquin, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Illinois, Mississippi, Oklahoma., pretty much every part of the US you can name,...

This looks grim to me. Best of luck to those forum regulars here who work in hospitals.