Non Compete Agreements for a min. wage food preparation job? What is going on here?

Oldgamer

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Jan 15, 2013
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You know there’s something wrong with the economy when sandwich-makers have non-compete clauses

Capital has been stealing labor's lunch money the past 15 years, and, in related news, sandwich-makers at Jimmy John's sub chain now have to sign non-compete agreements.

That's right: Jimmy John's workers have to promise not to take any of the trade secrets they learned assembling subs to any nearby sandwich shop for at least two years, according to Huffington Post. This is what happens when workers have zero bargaining power.

Now, economists used to think that the balance of power between labor and capital was pretty fixed. In other words, workers would always get a certain share of their company's earnings, and owners would get the rest. For most of the postwar period, this certainly seemed to be the case: the split between labor and capital stayed roughly the same throughout, although it did start to slowly shift in management's favor during the 1970s. Despite that, labor's share of income was still close to its longer-term average in the late 1990s.

But, as you can see below, labor's share plummeted at the turn of the century. What changed? Well, for one, globalization really got going. China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001, and the cost of its increased trade with the U.S. was an estimated 2 to 2.4 million jobs here, mostly in manufacturing. All this offshoring, of course, let U.S. multinationals pay their shareholders more at the expense of U.S. workers. And then the financial crisis all but finished labor off. That's because the government did enough to save the economy, but not the unemployed, so companies could squeeze their workers even more while booking record earnings. Not only that, but, for reasons that aren't entirely clear, the middle-class jobs we lost during the Great Recession have just been replaced by low-paying ones during the not-so-great recovery. That's kept labor from catching up at all the past few years.

Labor-Share-of-Income.jpg


So the crisis has let Corporate America gobble up an even bigger slice of the income pie for itself, while the rest of America is stuck hoping for some wage crumbs. Indeed, S&P 500 companies have spent 95 percent of their earnings this year on boosting stock prices with dividends and share buybacks. No wonder the stock market is sky high, the recent volatility notwithstanding, while median income continues to stagnate.

Companies, in other words, have so much power that they can make their employees do almost anything. Including, it turns out, signing away their right to work for a competitor.

This, to use a technical term, is nuts. Non-compete clauses, after all, are usually reserved for top executives who really could take sensitive information—and not how to put together a sub—to a rival. Or at least they used to be. As Stephen Greenhouse of the New York Times reports, it's not just Jimmy John's that's trying to keep its entry-level workers from jumping ship. It's everything from hair salons to yoga studios to even summer camps. Yes, your kid's camp counselor might have a contract that bars them from taking their arts and crafts talents to any other.

But why are companies even doing this? Easy: Because they can. And because it makes it harder for their employees to demand higher pay. If you can't switch jobs after all, the only way you'll get a raise is if your boss gives you one. Now, big chains like Jimmy John's would rather replace workers than pay them more, but they'd also rather not have to replace them and train new people. Non-competes make it easier for companies to hold on to the workers they want at the low wages they want.

Corporate America's victory has been the economy's loss. That's because job-switching, which has already been on the decline, tends to boost wages and productivity. It's how people find out what they're best at and can be paid the most to do. If you don't let them do that, then you sacrifice some of their long-term potential for company's short-term profits.

Shareholder value, ain't it grand.

Link to article


This just boggles my mind. I know where I live this would not be enforceable. It would prevent many min. wage employees from being able to get a min. wage job and if I remember correctly these types of agreements are not enforceable.

I would love to hear what you all think about this.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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I'd love to see them try to enforce this in a court of law. It is a frickin sandwich, not a highly tuned production line.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
I'd love to see them try to enforce this in a court of law. It is a frickin sandwich, not a highly tuned production line.

you think a min wage kid has the funds to fight it?


though a min wage kid is more likely to say fuck you to them.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure some fresh, idiot MBA came up with that idea, not sure how he sold it to anybody with a brain. The cost of actually going after somebody for breaking their non-compete would be vastly higher than the cost to train some kid on the job.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
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Lol, going to use their high end on-the-job training to learn all my sandwich making skills, quit, and then set up my own company using their secret mayo spreading technique to rake in the profits.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure some fresh, idiot MBA came up with that idea, not sure how he sold it to anybody with a brain. The cost of actually going after somebody for breaking their non-compete would be vastly higher than the cost to train some kid on the job.

Well I agree, but I think this is an intimidation or scare tactic. Most people working a min. wage job may not understand the law and not be very well educated.

It wouldn't surprise me however in today's age with all the extreme greediness of these companies to actually put someone through a court procedure over this. They have the money the min. wage person doesn't.

It is just a sign of the times though, at how greedy and uncompassionate large companies / corporations are toward their employees.
 

Raizinman

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2007
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Part of a non-compete is not just trade secrets but also their accounts. Lets say Jimmy Johns has 50 great accounts. If someone went to Subway and then tried to steal those accounts, that would be a violation of the non-compete. Non-competes are difficult to litigate, but are mainly used as a scare tactic for the minimum wage earner who doesn't now any better.
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
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Wouldn't it cost you more to enforce this than it would to simply hire another teenager?
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
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#1, good luck trying to enforce that.

#2, good luck trying to enforce any non-compete clause,.. that doesn't require you to read minds, see through walls and look at computer screen like Neo did in the Matrix. Non-compete is nothing more than a pile of paper boogie men. I have yet to personally experience any 'retribution' and I recycle my work from every job I've been to and will be going to.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Part of a non-compete is not just trade secrets but also their accounts. Lets say Jimmy Johns has 50 great accounts. If someone went to Subway and then tried to steal those accounts, that would be a violation of the non-compete. Non-competes are difficult to litigate, but are mainly used as a scare tactic for the minimum wage earner who doesn't now any better.
That's an excellent point.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
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That's an excellent point.

People do not follow their sandwich maker from one sub shop to another. An attorney may take clients with them when they leave. People don't go to a sandwich shop because of a specific person making their sandwich. It's not a professional position.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
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That's right: Jimmy John's workers have to promise not to take any of the trade secrets they learned assembling subs to any nearby sandwich shop for at least two years, according to Huffington Post.

WTf is a "sub assembling trade secret?" How many secret ways can there be to make an effing sandwich?

Part of a non-compete is not just trade secrets but also their accounts.

While that point is valid, do the companies in question have "accounts?" If I go to Subway one day on a walk-in am I their account? If the pimply-faced teenager shorting me on pre-measured deli meat gets a new job at the Port of Subs down the street and I walk in there did they steal Subways account?
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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A whole non compete agreement is pretty stupid. I do remember having to sign something saying that I wouldn't give away recipes/trade secrets back in my food service days though.

Special sauce isn't so special without something in place.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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you think a min wage kid has the funds to fight it?


though a min wage kid is more likely to say fuck you to them.
They don't have to fight it. The burden would lie on Jimmy John's to enforce it.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Saw a hilarious article about companies who refuse to raise minimum wage complaining about slow wage growth hurting their sales. The corporatist chickens are coming home to roost.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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They don't have to fight it. The burden would lie on Jimmy John's to enforce it.


Yes you do unless you are looking for a potential default judgment against you.

http://petereidlaw.com/2013/04/pete...alon-despite-signing-a-non-compete-agreement/

A popular Austin hair stylist recently retained Pete Reid Law after he was sued by his former Salon for allegedly breaching a Confidentiality and Non-competition Agreement.


The Stylist had been required to sign the Agreement before he began working with the Salon in 2009.


The Agreement stated that upon conclusion of his employment, the Stylist could not use any of the Salon&#8217;s proprietary information or client lists, and also that the Stylist was not allowed to work in any other hair salon for a period of 12 months within a 5-mile radius of the Salon.


In November 2012, after working with the Salon for 3 years, the Stylist moved to a new location less than two miles from his former employer. The Salon filed a lawsuit against the Stylist and sought an immediate hearing for a Temporary Restraining Order and Injunctive Relief to stop the Stylist from working at all. The Salon also sought damages for breach of contract and reimbursement for its litigation expenses and attorneys fees.


The Stylist hired Pete Reid to defend him on December 28, 2012, just 5 days before the hearing on the Restraining Order!


However, when the day of the hearing arrived Pete Reid was fully prepared as always, armed with memoranda of law, case studies, statutes, and statements from the Stylist&#8217;s clients. The importance of the client statements was to demonstrate that the Stylist had not attempted to solicit the Salon&#8217;s clients for his new space, and that in fact, the Salon had actually told some of the clients where the Stylist was now working.
At the hearing, Pete Reid cross-examined the owner of the Salon and provoked testimony from the owner that the Salon had at times directed their customers to the Stylist at his new location. The Salon owner was also unable to provide any evidence to show that the Stylist had used any of its client lists or confidential information.


Mr. Reid also showed the Court a map of Austin with the restrained area highlighted. It was very noticeable that the restricted area almost covered the entire city.
In closing, Mr. Reid cited to the recent case of Marsh USA Inc. v. Cook, 354 S.W.3d 764, 780-81 (Tex. 2011), to support the proposition that as the Salon could not prove any breach in confidentiality, the Salon&#8217;s only motivation in seeking to stop the Stylist from working was to restrain competition, and that
&#8220;Restrictions on employee mobility that exist only to squelch competition are per se illegal in Texas, and for good reason.&#8221;
Pete Reid added from the same case that:
&#8220;Naked restraints of trade are particularly onerous because, besides stifling beneficial competition, they also meddle with people&#8217;s right to earn an honest living. Sixty-five years ago, we declared the right to use one&#8217;s &#8220;own labor in any lawful employment &#8230; one of the first and highest of civil rights&#8221;. (id at 785).
Mr. Reid also made the legal argument that the consideration given by the Salon for entering in the Agreement must &#8220;give rise to&#8221; the Salon&#8217;s interest in restraining the Stylist, and that this was another reason why the Agreement was unenforceable.
Presiding Judge Darleen Byrne agreed with Mr. Reid, and after considering the evidence and arguments presented in the hearing and reviewing the relevant case law tendered to the Court, Judge Byrne stated that:

  1. The Salon had not demonstrated proof of a probable imminent and irreparable injury in the absence of the issuance of a temporary restraining order or temporary injunction, in part by the Salon directing customers to the Stylist and his new employer in response to inquiries by customers;
  2. The Salon&#8217;s efforts to restrict the mobility of the Stylist, a former employee, were primarily designed to restrain competition; and
  3. Restrictions on employee mobility which are designed primarily to restrain competition were unlawful.
It was therefore ordered, adjudged and decreed that the Salon&#8217;s request for a Temporary Restraining Order and Temporary Injunction to stop the Stylist working was in all things DENIED.


As a result, the Stylist was able to continue to work on his clients.
Pete Reid wishes to acknowledge the assistance of his wife Farah Reid, an award-winning hair stylist at I Love You Pink, in preparing for the hearing.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
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81
Seems to me that Hourly and Non-Exempt employees should pretty much be free from anything of the sort. Exempt employees are privy to the kind of knowledge and access to former clients that could damage their previous employer. Not hairstylists and sandwich artists.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
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Part of a non-compete is not just trade secrets but also their accounts. Lets say Jimmy Johns has 50 great accounts. If someone went to Subway and then tried to steal those accounts, that would be a violation of the non-compete. Non-competes are difficult to litigate, but are mainly used as a scare tactic for the minimum wage earner who doesn't now any better.

That's an excellent point.

Not really.

People do not follow their sandwich maker from one sub shop to another. An attorney may take clients with them when they leave. People don't go to a sandwich shop because of a specific person making their sandwich. It's not a professional position.

Exactly. A sandwich shop doesn't really have clients.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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If I had a sub shop in the same city, I would advertise for the best sub makers, offering them a raise, and offering them free legal representation in the event that they were sued over that clause. Free publicity.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,225
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Part of a non-compete is not just trade secrets but also their accounts. Lets say Jimmy Johns has 50 great accounts. If someone went to Subway and then tried to steal those accounts, that would be a violation of the non-compete. Non-competes are difficult to litigate, but are mainly used as a scare tactic for the minimum wage earner who doesn't now any better.

That's an excellent point.



I'm just wondering what great accounts someone assembling sandwiches would have access to in their daily jobs. Certainly not the information necessary to "steal" those great accounts, whatever they may be. Well, maybe if the min. wage sandwich assembler is a hacker and can break into JJ's computer network and access the info necessary to make a pitch to the proper people. It's not enough to simply know that JJ's is supplying food to the MetLife building or whatever, one needs much more than that to filch accounts, if JJ's has any in the first place.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Saw a hilarious article about companies who refuse to raise minimum wage complaining about slow wage growth hurting their sales. The corporatist chickens are coming home to roost.

Glancing at the replies to the OP in this thread it is good to finally see some of the Corporate Thug supporters starting to see the error of their ways and not siding with Jimmy Johns on this.

There is a slight glimmer of hope.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Saw a hilarious article about companies who refuse to raise minimum wage complaining about slow wage growth hurting their sales. The corporatist chickens are coming home to roost.
lol That is funny.

Not really.


Exactly. A sandwich shop doesn't really have clients.
Sure it does. Some people are random call-ins in need of delivery, but some delivery clients are solicited. We've been solicited by Jimmy Johns, and as a consequence use them fairly often. I don't know if we have a person we normally contact to set that up, but if so and he/she left and solicited us for the new employer we'd certainly give them a try. Typically I like to identify one or two responsible people and work through them, but I don't handle food delivery. Could be that after the initial solicitation, that person no longer has much contact with us.

I doubt that a non-compete clause suite would go far though. Sandwich shops typically have core delivery areas. If the new sandwich shop served the same area, the employee would undoubtedly be soliciting every business in the area, so it wouldn't be like the employee was taking specialized knowledge to find her former clients.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
Exactly. A sandwich shop doesn't really have clients.

They certainly can.

I have had pizza/sub shops as accounting clients. They can have contracts with schools/universities etc to have rights to sell at sporting events etc. I.e., provide concessions.
-------------

I don't know whether or not they have any secret processes, but such a non-compete would prevent an employee from opening up his sub shop to compete with them.

After googling, it looks like one objective of the non-compete agreement is to prevent franchisees from poaching each others employees.

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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I'm just wondering what great accounts someone assembling sandwiches would have access to in their daily jobs. Certainly not the information necessary to "steal" those great accounts, whatever they may be. Well, maybe if the min. wage sandwich assembler is a hacker and can break into JJ's computer network and access the info necessary to make a pitch to the proper people. It's not enough to simply know that JJ's is supplying food to the MetLife building or whatever, one needs much more than that to filch accounts, if JJ's has any in the first place.
I would tend to think the solicitors would be assistant managers rather than the minimum wage people - they probably just hit everyone with the non-compete on principle. But the people who solicit know whom to speak with as well as which accounts order often; both those things might be worth something as otherwise one is reduced to dropping off menus. For us, I think Jimmy Johns is one of the places where we are billed monthly, but I may be wrong as most of the time I have the food ordered it's because salesmen are paying for it. And when it is otherwise, I've never asked if we charge it to our account or put it on our credit card.

Either way, if we have someone who has always provided good service at Jimmy Johns and she leaves, we would try her new employer. But then we try most delivery places that solicit us, and using one depends more on the quality level of food and service since those of us who have food ordered usually (though not always) specify the place or at least the type of food.

It's an interesting question, I'll have to remember to ask our secretary about her procedure.