Noise with HD camcorders?

[PUN]

I bought a cheap Kodak zi06 handycam 720p for casual recording. I noticed significant noise level in indoor light settings, nowhere near HD channel quality.

Do Canon Vixia series offer no noise under low light/indoor light? Are they as clear as the HD channels you see on ESPN HD?

Thanks for your input!

 

[sswingle]

The problem is the low light. No camera is going to give you "espn HD" in low light.

That being said, the bigger the sensor in the camera, the better it will fare with low light. Also look for the camera's lux rating. The lower the lux, the better it will do.

 

[Fardringle]

The cameras used to record video for HD TV stations cost more than the average person's annual salary. Consumer "HD" cameras are capable of recording in higher resolutions than older cameras and can produce some nice results, especially in good light, but they will never rival the professional systems. All digital cameras (even the expensive ones) are subject to some "noise", particularly in low light situations, and as sswingle said, the small sensor in most consumer level cameras just makes it worse.

 

[imported_Irse]

You get what you pay for. You'll have to pay some serious bucks to get something remotely close to what the TV stations use.

 

[PUN]

so even getting canon vixia or something in the price range of few thousands wouldn't yield in ESPN HD quality right? Thanks!

 

[imported_Irse]

Originally posted by: PUN
so even getting canon vixia or something in the price range of few thousands wouldn't yield in ESPN HD quality right? Thanks!

Right. I think the cameras they use is in the high 5 figures or low 6 figures. They wouldn't spend that much if they could get by with a few thousand.

 

[Fardringle]

Originally posted by: PUN
so even getting canon vixia or something in the price range of few thousands wouldn't yield in ESPN HD quality right? Thanks!

It would be better than the camera that you have now, but still a far cry from the professional cameras.

 

[sswingle]

And along the same lines of bigger sensor=better, a camera with 3 sensors will be better as well.

 

[theblackbox]

low light performance is always an issue in consumer cameras. while a bigger sensor would ideally work better, the small size of the cameras and the glass just doesn't work in the favor of low light performance.

traditionally, 3 sensor consumer cameras have performed poorly, the new panasonic being the exception.

the secret to great low light performance is a lot of light.

if you want the same performance you see from tv recorded in video (not film) you really need to step up to the big cameras. big prices.

 

[PUN]

ah...thanks for your help guys!

I had just thought that when they said TRUE HD, i just imagined ESPN HD

Any particular HD cam SD Storage you'd recommend?
Canon HS200 (?!?), i was considering....

 

[Koing]

Originally posted by: sswingle
And along the same lines of bigger sensor=better, a camera with 3 sensors will be better as well.

Not always true

Originally posted by: PUN
ah...thanks for your help guys!

I had just thought that when they said TRUE HD, i just imagined ESPN HD

Any particular HD cam SD Storage you'd recommend?
Canon HS200 (?!?), i was considering....

The resolution is the same but what you get 'image/ video quality' is most definately not.

You will have to spend at least a few thousand pounds to get something a lot better. Studios etc use a lot and pretty dam powerful lights to get enough light indoors. These are on studio FW900 Sony pro camcorders with £5-10k lenses on them that are pretty f0cking huge.

Sony typically have good low lux for their £1-2k prosumer camcorders.

Most cameras will shoot good video in outdoor sun but it's the tricker situations and ease of use (lots of buttons, no messing with on screen menu's etc) that makes something more expensive and 'Pro' like. You generally also get the added weight.

Koing

 

[Kaido]

Like Koing said, what you see on TV = awesome lighting + expensive cameras. You're really just paying for the sensor and the lens. Unfortunately shooting in the dark with good results isn't as simple as pushing the record button

The Kodak Zi6 is a nifty camera, but $150 isn't going to get you anywhere near ESPN HD quality. I got my sister a Zi6 for her birthday and it's pretty noisy even in the daytime Upgrading to a handheld HD camcorder will help reduce noise quite a bit - I'm a Canon fan so that's what I'll reference here: the tape-based Canon HD camcorders seem to have the best low-light capabilities (which isn't saying much), and the newer all-digital (flash or HDD) HD camcorders, such as the HFS-10 and HFS-100, seem to be improving over the pure-digital image of older all-digital camcorders. Even the HF100 and HF200 "budget" line of HD camcorders will yield better results than the Zi6. The Zi6 is meant for convenience, not quality - it's something you can stick in your pocket and shoot footage anywhere.

Here are some low-light samples (not mine) from the camcorder I have, the tape-based Canon HV20: (you can find one for about $400 used; the HV30 and HV40 are the same camera)

http://www.vimeo.com/603744

http://www.vimeo.com/713618

http://www.vimeo.com/818383

http://www.vimeo.com/760230

You have to learn the settings on your camcorder to figure out how to get the best picture in low-light conditions, so be prepared to fiddle with it and learn the settings until you get the picture you want. You can reduce grain with the Neat Video plugin:

http://www.neatvideo.com/

If you really want insane low-light performance, the new Canon 5D Mark II dSLR camera has wicked low-light capabilities:

http://www.vimeo.com/5080565

 

[PUN]

thanks for the link and your help!
Canon 5D, does it perform as well as handheld hd cam? If so, I rather get this since I don't have to carry two big items when i travel.
thanks!

 

[Deadtrees]

Originally posted by: PUN
thanks for the link and your help!
Canon 5D, does it perform as well as handheld hd cam? If so, I rather get this since I don't have to carry two big items when i travel.
thanks!

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:5d

With 5D mk2, you not only get low noise but also great detail unlike in those cams with small sensors. The problem is that it's not easy to hold the camera steady. It gets even worse when you change settings. With IS lens, it gets far better and I strongly recommand you get a lens with IS. You also should get an external mic. otherwise even IS noise would be recorded.

One thing you should know is its focusing matter. On one hand, the great depth of field gives you fantastic visual experience; on the other hand, it's hard to focus right and because its contrast dectection is quite slow, you might even find it useless. In that case, manual focusing is your friend and that friend isn't friendly.

To sum it all, 5d mk2 can give you amazing video quality. I'd say it's even better than ESPN HD quality: there's a reason when Harry Potter and Iron Man crews are testing 5D mk2 on set. The downside is that it's a lot more difficult than using one of those cams. One more thing: 5D mk2 and IS lens are heavy. Those two can be considered as "two big items."

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Originally posted by: PUN
thanks for the link and your help!
Canon 5D, does it perform as well as handheld hd cam? If so, I rather get this since I don't have to carry two big items when i travel.
thanks!

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:5d

With 5D mk2, you not only get low noise but also great detail unlike in those cams with small sensors. The problem is that it's not easy to hold the camera steady. It gets even worse when you change settings. With IS lens, it gets far better and I strongly recommand you get a lens with IS. You also should get an external mic. otherwise even IS noise would be recorded.

One thing you should know is its focusing matter. On one hand, the great depth of field gives you fantastic visual experience; on the other hand, it's hard to focus right and because its contrast dectection is quite slow, you might even find it useless. In that case, manual focusing is your friend and that friend isn't friendly.

To sum it all, 5d mk2 can give you amazing video quality. I'd say it's even better than ESPN HD quality: there's a reason when Harry Potter and Iron Man crews are testing 5D mk2 on set. The downside is that it's a lot more difficult than using one of those cams. One more thing: 5D mk2 and IS lens are heavy. Those two can be considered as "two big items."

Does IS work in video mode? I have to use manual focus in video mode on my D90.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: PUN
thanks for the link and your help!
Canon 5D, does it perform as well as handheld hd cam? If so, I rather get this since I don't have to carry two big items when i travel.
thanks!

Yes and no. It pretty much kills everything on the market in terms of black levels...it's absolutely incredible out of the box. You have to learn camera settings, of course. It doesn't have camcorder-style image stabilization, so you'll want a tripod anytime you shoot, or a steadicam. So it has trade-offs (plus the $2500 price just for the body, no glass), but also really great benefits. Take a look at those videos on 5D posted above, you'll just be blown away

 

[Deadtrees]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Originally posted by: PUN
thanks for the link and your help!
Canon 5D, does it perform as well as handheld hd cam? If so, I rather get this since I don't have to carry two big items when i travel.
thanks!

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:5d

With 5D mk2, you not only get low noise but also great detail unlike in those cams with small sensors. The problem is that it's not easy to hold the camera steady. It gets even worse when you change settings. With IS lens, it gets far better and I strongly recommand you get a lens with IS. You also should get an external mic. otherwise even IS noise would be recorded.

One thing you should know is its focusing matter. On one hand, the great depth of field gives you fantastic visual experience; on the other hand, it's hard to focus right and because its contrast dectection is quite slow, you might even find it useless. In that case, manual focusing is your friend and that friend isn't friendly.

To sum it all, 5d mk2 can give you amazing video quality. I'd say it's even better than ESPN HD quality: there's a reason when Harry Potter and Iron Man crews are testing 5D mk2 on set. The downside is that it's a lot more difficult than using one of those cams. One more thing: 5D mk2 and IS lens are heavy. Those two can be considered as "two big items."

Does IS work in video mode? I have to use manual focus in video mode on my D90.

Yes, IS works in video mode and I'm sure same goes for Nikon.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Yes, IS works in video mode and I'm sure same goes for Nikon.

Hmm, seems it does. Not anything NEAR a camcorder though, I don't really see any difference in my clips on a VR vs. a non-VR lens.

The DOF is amazing, the black levels are unbelievable, the picture clarity is stellar, but on the D90 I can't change the shutter or ISO, which is a big deal. And you have to setup exposure lock as well. Canon seems to be much more proactive in pursing HD recording on their dSLR...the 5D is absolutely incredible with the new firmware update...

 

[Deadtrees]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Yes, IS works in video mode and I'm sure same goes for Nikon.

Hmm, seems it does. Not anything NEAR a camcorder though, I don't really see any difference in my clips on a VR vs. a non-VR lens.

The DOF is amazing, the black levels are unbelievable, the picture clarity is stellar, but on the D90 I can't change the shutter or ISO, which is a big deal. And you have to setup exposure lock as well. Canon seems to be much more proactive in pursing HD recording on their dSLR...the 5D is absolutely incredible with the new firmware update...

In my case, the difference I see is quite big. Without IS lens, I see those small but tiny shakes which I find very annoying. With IS, it's gone.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Yes, IS works in video mode and I'm sure same goes for Nikon.

Hmm, seems it does. Not anything NEAR a camcorder though, I don't really see any difference in my clips on a VR vs. a non-VR lens.

The DOF is amazing, the black levels are unbelievable, the picture clarity is stellar, but on the D90 I can't change the shutter or ISO, which is a big deal. And you have to setup exposure lock as well. Canon seems to be much more proactive in pursing HD recording on their dSLR...the 5D is absolutely incredible with the new firmware update...

In my case, the difference I see is quite big. Without IS lens, I see those small but tiny shakes which I find very annoying. With IS, it's gone.

Interesting, I'll have to test that out more on my D90, I didn't even know that VR was really functional haha. All in all though, my footage is useless unless it's stabilized. The 5D sounds like a really great option...if they ever add 24p, I'm gonna have to switch camps lol...

 

[Shlong]

All the handycams I've seen (sony & canon in sub $1k range) have a lot of noise in low light situations. I think you need to step up to the next set $3k - $5k for less noise in low light, such as panasonic hmc-150: http://www.vimeo.com/1838192

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Shlong
All the handycams I've seen (sony & canon in sub $1k range) have a lot of noise in low light situations. I think you need to step up to the next set $3k - $5k for less noise in low light, such as panasonic hmc-150: http://www.vimeo.com/1838192

Hey, all you need is money

 

[PUN]

thx shlong...that's exactly what i was looking for............EDIT: until i saw the size of this thing. there is no way i can lug that around. ESPN HD quality though