Noam Chomsky criticizes the left...

whylaff

Senior member
Oct 31, 2007
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It is rather long, but the interesting part (to me at least) seems to be the last question. I searched on this topic and there was another posted similar that discussed Noam Chomsky from a speech in October, but not on the topic of this particular interview.

He criticizes the left for failing to have an appropriate dialogue with average Americans, and for ridiculing protests on the right, especially those of individuals impacted by the economic situation the most.

Opinions on this will obviously have to do a lot with individual perspective and personal ideology, but feel free to take step back from that for a moment. Is the Democratic Party losing support by ridiculing protestors at these events, fabricated or not?

My thoughts are simply yes, they are. I think the claim that they are fabricated is an ineffective argument against such events, because it is purely commentary, there is no resolution to the underlying issue. It often appears as though Democrats assume that individuals sit down and plot out a rationalized comparative analysis of a situation before them based upon some supposed “universal truths” in the political realm. Conservatives harnessed the ability to create basic narratives, which utilizes an instant rationalization supported by that narrative. It seems Democrats never embraced it. Everything is instead put through this longer process of rationalization. That can be good or bad, depending on the situation. But if I know what my problem is as an individual and someone provides me with a solution that makes sense and instantly meshes with my brain, will I really be going through the longer process?

Just a note: Personally, I have no interest in talking about the Nazi comparison he makes here, because it was talked about at length in the older post when he made similar comments at speech and there is very little to add to that discussion.

DK: On that note, I'm also looking to think ahead with what's in the future for the labor movement and the IWW. More generally, if you had one piece of advice to offer future generations of Wobblies—especially in light of the tough financial times that we are facing and will probably continue to face for a long time in the Western world—what would it be?

NC: Well, I get a lot of letters from people. When I go home tonight I'll have 15 letters today from mostly young kids who don't like what's going on and want to do something about it, and [they ask me] if I can give them some advice as to what they should do, or can I tell them what to read or something. It doesn't work like that. I mean, everything depends very much on who you are, what your values are, what your commitments are, what circumstances you live in and what options you're willing to undertake, and that determines what you ought to be doing. There are some very general ideas that people can keep in mind; they're kind of truisms. It's only worth mentioning them because they're always denied.

First of all, don't believe anything you hear from power systems. So if Obama or the boss or the newspapers or anyone else tells you they're doing this, that, or the other thing, dismiss it or assume the opposite is true, which it often is. You have to rely on yourself and your associates—gifts don't come from above; you're going to win them, or you won't have them, and you win by struggle, and that requires understanding and serious analysis of the options and the circumstances, and then you can do a lot. So take right now, for example, there is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And in fact they are getting shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who it is. Well Rush Limbaugh has answered - it's the rich liberals who own the banks and run the government, and of course run the media, and they don't care about you—they just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and gays and communists and so on.

Well, you know, the reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but rather self-criticism. Why aren't we organizing them? I mean, we are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs, which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar grievances, and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers; these groups weren't getting them anywhere else. It was the Jews and the Bolsheviks [that were the problem].

I mean, the liberal democrats aren't going to tell the average American, "Yeah, you're being shafted because of the policies that we've established over the years that we're maintaining now." That's not going to be an answer. And they're not getting answers from the left. So, there's an internal coherence and logic to what they get from Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and the rest of these guys. And they sound very convincing, they're very self-confident, and they have an answer to everything—a crazy answer, but it's an answer. And it's our fault if that goes on. So one thing to be done is don't ridicule these people, join them, and talk about their real grievances and give them a sensible answer, like, "Take over your factories."

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/23178
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Maybe if the Tea Party and the people at these healthcare town Halls weren't organized and sponsored by rightwing News outlets and pundits, lobbyists like Dick Armey, and the republican party, they would get more respect than criticism.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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There are some good points there, but I think that solution is a poor one. It is essentially saying that the Left should just engage in the same illogical Propaganda, thus just entrenching Crazy as the Norm. That would just escalate things to a likely unsavory conclusion.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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Maybe if the Tea Party and the people at these healthcare town Halls weren't organized and sponsored by rightwing News outlets and pundits, lobbyists like Dick Armey, and the republican party, they would get more respect than criticism.
Your mindset is at the root of the problem.

You read the post and the first thing that comes to your mind is that these people don't think like me and therefore they are wrong. Then you put it in writing because you feel so strongly about it.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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I don't want to piss-off too many people but Chomsky is about as 'fringe' (some may say 'loon') as it gets in the US.

I'm not discounting what the man says - there are tiny fragments of enlightenment that can generate agreement but in totality he is simply a freak.

And there is no 'Left' in the United States anymore. The closest would be the Greens.

Everything else is varying degrees of conservative "New Federalism" ...
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I don't want to piss-off too many people but Chomsky is about as 'fringe' (some may say 'loon') as it gets in the US.

I'm not discounting what the man says - there are tiny fragments of enlightenment that can generate agreement but in totality he is simply a freak.

And there is no 'Left' in the United States anymore. The closest would be the Greens.

Everything else is varying degrees of conservative "New Federalism" ...

I'm not sure what conservative "new federalism" is, but I'd find it hard to believe they would generally support effectively taking over health care by the government and such.

There is a very vocal left. Most people just ignore it, like they do with Limbaughites.

One side says "trust the corporate interests" and the other "trust the government" as if we had to do either.

Such is life.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Anyone who read Chomsky would know he is tougher on the so-called "left" in this country then the right (which are mostly a hopeless reactionary bunch) Chomsky is hardly radical, he is a left libertarian which USED to be mainstream before the government sponsored purges of the left during WW1 and the 50s mccarthy BS. Since reagan the left in this country has been drowned out by corporate media looking out for their own interests. Being even remotely left of dems (a right-wing party) = having the plague.

His arguments may be over peoples heads when it comes to history but it still is no excuse to pull the intellectually lazy bit of saying he is radical so dismissing him. That's weaksauce. The guy is a walking history book and vast resource of knowledge even if you do not like his conclusions you gotta admit he knows his stuff. (if you have actually READ his stuff)
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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There is a very vocal left.

Who? Chomsky? We have a few outspoken Democrats (MMoore, Kucinich but really they are not "left" to the rest of the world -at the best they can be called reformists. At worst (from a left PoV) petty bourgeoisie revisionists for mostly standing up for the status quo. (except for the typical mostly safe populist issues)
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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As a general rule, I tend to discount people who treat "the left" and "average Americans" as two separate groups. It sounds way too much like right-wing propaganda and less like someone trying to make an honest point. It would be like starting an essay by saying conservatives need to reconnect with "smart Americans".
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Your mindset is at the root of the problem.

You read the post and the first thing that comes to your mind is that these people don't think like me and therefore they are wrong. Then you put it in writing because you feel so strongly about it.

^^^^Total Fail. What I posted was the truth, you just don't want to hear it. I'm all for healthcare debate at townhalls, but when the anti-healthcare lobbyists start mailing out how to disrupt the meetings and to make sure to shout over the other rational people and even go so far as to bus people in from other locations, that's beyond reasonable debate. That's mob rule mentality. The Tea Party people is a little different. It began as a normal movement, then nutcases like Dick Armey and Glenn Beck saw the opportunity to step in and make it their own agenda and turn it into an anti-government movement. I'm for some of what the original Tea Party was for, but not what it has become.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Your mindset is at the root of the problem.

You read the post and the first thing that comes to your mind is that these people don't think like me and therefore they are wrong. Then you put it in writing because you feel so strongly about it.

Well, that's what MSNBC tells him on a nightly basis how to think
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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I find it really hard to believe that I should care about the far-rights' feeling getting hurt. They're not going to become democrats, support equal rights or ever be logical. Not to mention the only people really making fun of them are late-night talkshow hosts and a random people on youtube. How are you suppose to stop that? And even if we did it's not like we really gain anything.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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I find it really hard to believe that I should care about the far-rights' feeling getting hurt. They're not going to become democrats, support equal rights or ever be logical. Not to mention the only people really making fun of them are late-night talkshow hosts and a random people on youtube.

Also add in the Speaker of the House and the Speaker of the Senate.

Are you really that wrapped up in your own ego?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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What I posted was the truth, you just don't want to hear it. I'm all for healthcare debate at townhalls, but when the anti-healthcare lobbyists start mailing out how to disrupt the meetings and to make sure to shout over the other rational people and even go so far as to bus people in from other locations, that's beyond reasonable debate.

You've mistaken Acorn for the Tea Parties
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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I'm not sure what conservative "new federalism" is, but I'd find it hard to believe they would generally support effectively taking over health care by the government and such.

Examples of conservative "new federalism" policies are strong military, anti-immigration, drug war, abortion, gay marriage, etc. All of these are policies that modern 'conservatives' want to see implemented on a federal level.

While your example to the contrary is silly. The federal govt has effectively been in control of health care in the US since WWII. All those pensioner teabaggers fighting health care 'reform' aren't doing it to fight socialism or the federal govt, but because they don't want their medicare and social security benefits affected.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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There are some good points there, but I think that solution is a poor one. It is essentially saying that the Left should just engage in the same illogical Propaganda, thus just entrenching Crazy as the Norm. That would just escalate things to a likely unsavory conclusion.

The only person in the thread who actually read the OP. :p

And I agree. If people are stupid, the solution to forward your ideological agenda is not to prey upon their stupidity. That's unethical, which is why the Republican mouthpieces who do this (Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, etc) have such unsavory reputations with the moderate middle/general populace (to the point that most of their followers won't even admit to it). If the Democrats do this (and they already have to some extent), they will suffer the same fate.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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The only person in the thread who actually read the OP. :p

And I agree. If people are stupid, the solution to forward your ideological agenda is not to prey upon their stupidity. That's unethical, which is why the Republican mouthpieces who do this (Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, etc) have such unsavory reputations with the moderate middle/general populace (to the point that most of their followers won't even admit to it). If the Democrats do this (and they already have to some extent), they will suffer the same fate.

I don't see the logic behind your point? That is not intended to attack your view as wrong, only a statement that I can't figure it out.

I hear his saying something that sounds different to me. First he suggests that the left listen and try to understand the grievances these folk have and then to suggest a real answer. How is that preying on stupidity or anything like that?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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True change is impossible in America. Too many vested interests are rich with the status quo.

This is true only up the minute it becomes false and means nothing. Change will be created by folk who don't care what you say and don't think like you at all. They will be driven not by possibility but by need. They will change things because they have to.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Who? Chomsky? We have a few outspoken Democrats (MMoore, Kucinich but really they are not "left" to the rest of the world -at the best they can be called reformists. At worst (from a left PoV) petty bourgeoisie revisionists for mostly standing up for the status quo. (except for the typical mostly safe populist issues)

Good lord, even Kucinich and Moore aren't left enough for you? Amazing that you can stand American politics at all and haven't left for some "moderate" nation like Cuba or North Korea, Communist China obviously being far too right wing for your tastes.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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I don't see the logic behind your point? That is not intended to attack your view as wrong, only a statement that I can't figure it out.

I hear his saying something that sounds different to me. First he suggests that the left listen and try to understand the grievances these folk have and then to suggest a real answer. How is that preying on stupidity or anything like that?

Most of the replies in this thread are almost non-sensical if you read the OP carefully.

FWIW, my parents represent almost polar opposite views on this subject. My dad believes in reaching out and trying to connect with individuals on the other side of the political divide. He sees them as people with the same basic concerns we all have. My mom has a far more divisive view, that most right-wingers are extremists and unreasonable, and therefore not worth approaching.

I try to lean toward my dad's way of thinking, but sometimes (especially when dealing with religious fundamentalists) I can't help but think my mom is a little bit right too...