No, we won't let you put this on the ballot

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zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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Im confused now though. How exactly would a homosexual individual have a child from a previous relationship?

Some homosexual men tried, earlier in their lives, to lead heterosexual lives. Others have chosen to go the surrogate mother route.

And so now you suggesting allowing it to be legal to deny a child either a mother or a father :\

There is no legal requirement that children have exactly one mother and one father supporting them.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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That would be acceptable, but then again groups who oppose SSM also oppose civil unions or anything else that recognizes homosexual relationships.

No doubt many of them would, but not all of them. The goal is to simply pass legislation and passive aggression yields less resistance than a direct 'assault'.

When 'marriage' is left alone, the talking points will flounder in the mud. This is simply about controlling the narrative of equal rights.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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No doubt many of them would, but not all of them. The goal is to simply pass legislation and passive aggression yields less resistance than a direct 'assault'.

When 'marriage' is left alone, the talking points will flounder in the mud.

Enough of them would to prevent passing legislation.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Some homosexual men tried, earlier in their lives, to lead heterosexual lives. Others have chosen to go the surrogate mother route.



There is no legal requirement that children have exactly one mother and one father supporting them.

So in otherwords they choose to be heterosexual and then choose to be homosexual.

Having children outside of marriage should not be supported.

So you dont find it beneficial for children to have both a mother and father?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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So in otherwords they choose to be heterosexual and then choose to be homosexual.

Your understanding is poor in this area.. which is not at all surprising.

The only "choice" was in whether or not to pursue a heterosexual relationship. They did not choose what gender to be attracted to.

Relationships that are not satisfying sexually to those involved will never be stable.

Having children outside of marriage should not be supported.

Says who?

So you dont find it beneficial for children to have both a mother and father?

I find it beneficial for a child to have parents who truly love and sufficiently care for/raise them. I place less importance on the gender of those parents.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Does anyone have the actual wording of the Amendment and the actual wording of the summary, so that we can see if their complaint has merit?

Anyone? So that we can actually discuss what the thread is about?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Your understanding is poor in this area.. which is not at all surprising.

The only "choice" was in whether or not to pursue a heterosexual relationship. They did not choose what gender to be attracted to.

Relationships that are not satisfying sexually to those involved will never be stable.

Says who?

I find it beneficial for a child to have parents who truly love and sufficiently care for/raise them. I place less importance on the gender of those parents.

So you are saying that had a relationship that resulted in a child with someone they were not attracted to? :confused:

If we end no-fault divorce. I am willing to give you SSM. At that point we could say that marriage would have a societal purpose to establish a life-long stable relationship.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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So you are saying that had a relationship that resulted in a child with someone they were not attracted to? :confused:

Yes, it does happen... largely among previous generations of gay men.

If we end no-fault divorce. I am willing to give you SSM. At that point we could say that marriage would have a societal purpose to establish a life-long stable relationship.

I don't have a problem with divorce having greater consequences. I think personal responsibility needs to be strengthened and, simultaneously, more freedoms returned to individuals.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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OK, so here is the full text of the Amendment:

Be it resolved by the People of the State of Ohio that Article XV, Section 11 of the Ohio Constitution be adopted and read as follows: Section 11. In the State of Ohio and its political subdivisions, marriage shall be a union of two consenting adults not nearer of kin than second cousins, and not having a husband or wife living, and no religious institution shall be required to perform or recognize a marriage.
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...-Marry-and-Religious-Freedom-(Resubmissi.aspx

Do you also have the ballot summary? That is what they have a problem with, the summary to be placed on the ballot does not match what the amendment does, they believe.

If it is simpy the amendment title, which is:

The Freedom to Marry and Religious Freedom Amendment

I believe they have a point. The term "religious freedom" implies MUCH MUCH more than simply saying religions do not have to perform marriages (something already protected by the US Constitution). Remove everything from the word "and" onward and I think it then accurately reflects the amendment.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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So you are saying that had a relationship that resulted in a child with someone they were not attracted to? :confused:

If we end no-fault divorce. I am willing to give you SSM. At that point we could say that marriage would have a societal purpose to establish a life-long stable relationship.

Gay men frequently do get married to straight women for many reasons and have sex with them. It happens all the time! Marriage isn't all lovey dovey all the time. Sometimes marriage happens out of confusion, fear, anxiety, social pressure, etc etc.

Marriage honestly as you define it is pretty freaking shortsighted. In certain countries to get married, a wife's family must pay the husbands family to take her off their hands. There are tribes in africa as well as papua new guinea where a man is only married to his wife for procreative purposes and spends most of his recreative sex with other men and young boys. The ancient greeks were the same way seeing true love as only being between a man and a man (and to a lesser extent, a young boy). Women were just there for the nuts andbolts of procreation. Child raising was an affair between men. In the middle east, 50+ year old men marry girls who are 12 and 15 years of age. In india for centuries, they had marriage laws where a woman was expected to throw herself on the burning funeral pyre of her dead husband if her were to pass before here, taking the whole death do you part to an entirely new level. The indian government has gone through hell and back trying to remove those social expectations. We look at practices like that as ass backwards. How do you think the rest of the world sees us with our approach to gay marriage? Or another example, there are people in the middle east trying to stop the marriage of these young girls to these old rich geezers as essentially sex slaves and they are looked at the same way we look at people fighting for gay rights. Marriage is not just the tight narrow picture you paint it to be about man woman love.

What marriage today is in this country is the judeo christian interpretation and even that has undergone much change (outlawing polygamy for example, even though in the old testament and even parts of the new testament it was extremely common to not only have many wives but even mistresses and concubines without it being sin. All of a sudden that has changed without any real biblican backing as to why. What changed was social culture, not the bible).

All I'm trying to get you to see is that what a marriage is is not a fixed, universal idea. Think about what a chair is. Does a chair have to have 4 legs? Does it have to have a seat? Does it have to be made of wood? At some level there is an ideal of a chair which is all you need and the actual chair is probably pretty darn far from the ideal of a chair. I think overall when you look at how marriage has been interpreted across so many cultures over time, you can see that most likely SSM falls well within the real of what is included under the minimalistic platonic ideal of marriage, just like most chairs today fall under the ideal of a chair though are still a far cry from it.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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I do not at all trust the social conservative minority in this country.

Trust? I'm speaking of a master tactician manipulating the public narrative. Of controlling the message.

You don't get the 'social conservative' minority. You don't have to. You need to be aiming for the moderates or the folks who will defend marriage but accept equality.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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Trust? I'm speaking of a master tactician manipulating the public narrative. Of controlling the message.

You don't get the 'social conservative' minority. You don't have to. You need to be aiming for the moderates or the folks who will defend marriage but accept equality.

To just "accept" it is not enough to overcome the social conservatives. They must vote to support equality.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Yes, it does happen... largely among previous generations of gay men.
And current generation republicans.
I mean the gay republicans. Not all republicans. That would just be weird to say 50% of the country is gay.

I like what's his name's idea. Just completely remove the legal definition of marriage. This thing about income splitting shouldn't exist in the first place. Make up the difference by increasing the tax deduction on children. That way it doesn't matter if you're married or not; you still deduct your kids from your taxes the same way.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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Yes, it's a good idea to remove the term "marriage" from government completely and replace it with civil unions for both hetero- and homo-sexual couples... but the vast majority of heterosexual couples probably won't agree to have their relationships referred to in law and taxes as a civil union.