No sense in pretending. Hamas will never recognize Israel.

[dali71]

What? A country with a long history of colonization hugely oppressing a group, leaves that group less than perfectly ready to run the country to the highest standards?

Why, that makes no sense. I mean, if we let the prisoners in a prison take over, I'd expect them to run a very effective, safe facility.

Of course, there's a difference - the oppressed blacks are *entitled* to run their country badly - and hopefully improve over time, as they improve things from how bad they were, with such widespread discrimination, democratic institutions, political education, and so on.

I'm not going to defend the indefensible wrongs that go on there - but to say that the alternative of perpetual racist apartheid colonization is not acceptable.

Rather, there should be constructive efforts made to push for improvement.

You need to read what I was replying to before you post. I was responding to LL's claim that South Africa was "peaceful and thriving without any of the predicted revenge bloodbaths", which clearly is not the case. At no point did I claim that apartheid was acceptable.

 

[wwswimming]

why should Hamas recognize Israel ?

would you recognize a neighbor who went around blowing sh!t up, trying to blame it on their neighbors ?

that's what Israel has been doing since 1948.

of course, they blew sh!t up from 1935 to 1948, too, but they didn't try always try to blame it on their neighbors.

Israel - the Victimizers who always pretend to be the Victim.

why do they deserve recognition ?

if you think people like that deserve recognition, i suggest moving to Crescent City CA so you can visit the prisoners at Pelican Bay.

 

[EagleKeeper]

why should Hamas recognize Israel ?
Because that is one of the guidelines that the UN has stated must happen before they will bless a State of Palestine

would you recognize a neighbor who went around blowing sh!t up, trying to blame it on their neighbors ?
Yet Hamas has stated that the land state was assigned to Israel should belong to the Palestinians (Jordan river to the Med) - No more Israel\
Israel was happy with the '48 borders - the Arabs and Palestinians were not. Nothing seems to have changed. Israel took land in war as a buffer from future attacks[/b]

that's what Israel has been doing since 1948.

of course, they blew sh!t up from 1935 to 1948, too, but they didn't try always try to blame it on their neighbors.

Israel - the Victimizers who always pretend to be the Victim.

why do they deserve recognition ?

if you think people like that deserve recognition, i suggest moving to Crescent City CA so you can visit the prisoners at Pelican Bay.

Unsure how much sarcasm is within your post.

One could see your statements from either side

 

[EagleKeeper]

Its interesting to see Common Courtesy, saying, "Previously when called on to provide a link indicating such for Ismail Haniyeh. he avoided such."

But in case no one noticed, recent statements by Haniyeh, has moderated his past position in the past few days a great deal. And now that Haniyeh has changed his position, the new Israeli Boogie man is Zahar.

On the other hand, from the standpoint of the international community, even if Netanyuhu is an extremist idiot, just look at recent A . Lieberman statements to find a revolting idiot 110% sure to alienate the International community.

You still are avoiding the fact that you can not back up your statement.

Until Hamas amends their public statements; they are destroying the chances of a State of Palestine that is UN blessed.

And you can be sure that every word against Israel that they utter, will be amplified whenever the discussion of Palestine happens.

 

[fskimospy]

For this purpose I'll accept your statement. Let's go on from that. If Palestine wishes to have an independent state then it will need Israel to approve, because Israel is more powerful and Palestine has no right to exist as you say. Israel has no need to allow a stated hostile nation to form near it.

No one knows what Hamas will go along with so your statement is baseless. Well, we know what they don't want to put up with and that's Israel. So be it.



You omit one thing, and that is the USSR was already in place. The US had every right to keep it from forming as you say but destruction was a given to both sides. They negotiated largely to prevent that.

Since Israel hasn't obligation to allow a hostile nation to form next door is it perfectly reasonable for them to remove the threat.

Thanks for that.

My point had nothing to do with whether or not the USSR was there already. No state is obligated to do anything for any other, it's all if they decide its in their interest or not.

Israel is incapable of removing the Palestinian threat, as has been proven over the last 40 years or so, so they will have to find some other way to deal with it... which was sort of my point.

 

[fskimospy]

Proxies - Korea/Vietnam/Afghanistan is not the same as ICBMs or even Hawk/Patriots being fired from one country at another. My question was; did either side lob missiles at each other while in peace negotiations (SALT, etc)

Gaza is not using proxies against Israel - weapons are coming from that piece of land, aimed at Israel and/or Israeli citizens.

You did not have missiles flying from US or Russian land against the other. Were there special forces from either side slipping into the other's country and blowing up installations or attacking civilians.

The only weapons that the USSR used directly against US forces were SAMs when were were overflying the Soviets

This is true, the actions of the US and the USSR through proxies killed vastly more citizens of each other's countries than any action Hamas has taken, they were in fact much worse provocations. Glad we cleared that up.

Countries negotiate even during conflicts, they do it because unlike the people on this forum they aren't emotionally invested in an outcome.

 

[Lemon law]

You still are avoiding the fact that you can not back up your statement.

Until Hamas amends their public statements; they are destroying the chances of a State of Palestine that is UN blessed.

And you can be sure that every word against Israel that they utter, will be amplified whenever the discussion of Palestine happens.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three things to say, Common Courtesy.

1. Since the joint unity government 10 or so has not been named yet, why do expect to think I can be Psychic?

2. Ergodan of Turkey maybe said its best today, Hamas is not a forever lasting government or a terrorists group, its only a political party. And if any political party does not get enough votes to win, well they are no longer the "Government."

3. And now the political entity that Israel will have as a peace partner is the new Palestinian unity government, so why is Israel bleating in beating a dead horse horror, now that Hamas is out of power? No one rational in the world believes Netanyuhu empty words, they judge Netanyuhu on his quite evident hypocrisy. Similarly we must judge the new Palestinian unity government on its deeds, and not on what some out of power politicians say. Since the new unity government has not been fully named yet, or formally taken power, we do not yet know what its future deeds will be. But if we get a Palestinian State, Hamas ideas will go into the scrap bin of history. Isn't that what Israel wants, namely to get rid of Hamas?

 

[tvarad]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three things to say, Common Courtesy.

......
3. And now the political entity that Israel will have as a peace partner is the new Palestinian unity government, so why is Israel bleating in beating a dead horse horror, now that Hamas is out of power? No one rational in the world believes Netanyuhu empty words, they judge Netanyuhu on his quite evident hypocrisy. Similarly we must judge the new Palestinian unity government on its deeds, and not on what some out of power politicians say. Since the new unity government has not been fully named yet, or formally taken power, we do not yet know what its future deeds will be. But if we get a Palestinian State, Hamas ideas will go into the scrap bin of history. Isn't that what Israel wants, namely to get rid of Hamas?

The PA/Hamas deal is like a marriage between a cat and a dog, so let's see how long it lasts.

The Palestinian dog-and-pony show is not the only one on Middle East TV anymore. We now have more interesting shows going on in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, so they've concocted this outrageous marriage to up their ratings. It remains to be seen whether their show will be renewed.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Hamas is not out of power! Who runs Gaza? Fatah?

I do not expect you to be psychic. I expect you to provide the link where Haniyeh has no influence and is not the PM of Gaza.

But if we get a Palestinian State, Hamas ideas will go into the scrap bin of history.

Evidence of such. You honestly think that Hamas is going to slink into the back room, curl up and go away?

 

[EagleKeeper]

My point had nothing to do with whether or not the USSR was there already. No state is obligated to do anything for any other, it's all if they decide its in their interest or not.

Israel is incapable of removing the Palestinian threat, as has been proven over the last 40 years or so, so they will have to find some other way to deal with it... which was sort of my point.

Israel has chosen to not remove the threat.

They have the ability to do a "scorched" earth across Gaza and the West Bank if they so choose.

It was the UN intervention that saved the Arab armies 4 times from being eliminated during the Arab Israeli wars.

It was also the UN that protected Arafat and the PLO in Gaza and Lebanon everytime they ticked of Israel with attacks.

It was the UN that intervened to protect Hezbollah after they ticked of Israel.

Over the years; Israel has attempted to neuter the threats; not eliminate them as her opponents desire to do.

Israel goes into battle with one hand tied behind her back; why, who knows.
The intention is to break the opposition to protect herself from future attacks; not destroy the opposition.

 

[Lemon law]

Hamas is not out of power! Who runs Gaza? Fatah?

I do not expect you to be psychic. I expect you to provide the link where Haniyeh has no influence and is not the PM of Gaza.

Evidence of such. You honestly think that Hamas is going to slink into the back room, curl up and go away?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you are talking about Ideas, and ideas cannot be killed. Neither will the ideas of Israeli bonkers crazies in the settler parties.

All we can hope for is that those ideas are followed by only tiny minorities. The US does not even bother to try to censor the ideas of segregationists like David Duke. But David Duke can shoot his mouth off with impunity, but Duke is irrelevant because he has such few followers. Israel should desire the same fate for Hamas. But if there is a Palestinian State, Israel's main problem will be in controlling its own settler party crazies.

That other thing you are trying to do, is to try to say, the sins only attach to Hamas, when significant Israeli reform will be needed also, either voluntary or forced.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Where are the answers to the questions that you quoted?

Or is deflection as usual?

The Quartet has stated that Hamas needs to change its tune or the dream of a state will not happen.
Has Hamas changed their tune?


Three simple questions that you should be able to answer and provide links accordingly.

 

[Howard]

South Africa is peaceful and thriving

lolol

 

[fskimospy]

Israel has chosen to not remove the threat.

They have the ability to do a "scorched" earth across Gaza and the West Bank if they so choose.

It was the UN intervention that saved the Arab armies 4 times from being eliminated during the Arab Israeli wars.

It was also the UN that protected Arafat and the PLO in Gaza and Lebanon everytime they ticked of Israel with attacks.

It was the UN that intervened to protect Hezbollah after they ticked of Israel.

Over the years; Israel has attempted to neuter the threats; not eliminate them as her opponents desire to do.

Israel goes into battle with one hand tied behind her back; why, who knows.
The intention is to break the opposition to protect herself from future attacks; not destroy the opposition.

So yes, Israel cannot countenance the response from the international community that would occur if it participated in a genocide against the Palestinians. ie: they are incapable of removing the threat. Glad we agree.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So yes, Israel cannot countenance the response from the international community that would occur if it participated in a genocide against the Palestinians. ie: they are incapable of removing the threat. Glad we agree.

They could do it without genocide. Just expel all the Palestinians in Gaza into the Sinai and the West Bank over to Jordan and/or the Sinai .

Jordan may object or kick them out like they did before.
Egypt can do what they want with them - plenty of land available for them to not get into political trouble.

As long as Israel is not killing the Palestinians; they would have a clean conscience. Raze the villages all the way to Jordan and the Egyptian border.
The Arab nations can take responsibility for them as they were supposed to do back in '48

I could see such happening if there is a State of Palestine and Israel gets attack from within that state.

 

[fskimospy]

They could do it without genocide. Just expel all the Palestinians in Gaza into the Sinai and the West Bank over to Jordan and/or the Sinai .

Jordan may object or kick them out like they did before.
Egypt can do what they want with them - plenty of land available for them to not get into political trouble.

As long as Israel is not killing the Palestinians; they would have a clean conscience. Raze the villages all the way to Jordan and the Egyptian border.
The Arab nations can take responsibility for them as they were supposed to do back in '48

I could see such happening if there is a State of Palestine and Israel gets attack from within that state.

Ahhh, so you're just advocating for them to engage in ethnic cleansing as opposed to genocide. I'm sure that will go over really well too. Your ideas of what other countries would do with millions of Palestinian refugees fleeing ethnic cleansing is also quite curious.

You should probably think these things through a little better in the future.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Is this any worse than what the Palestinians profess to want and the Arabs tried to do?

I am stating that this is an option should the Palestinian state attack Israel.

And this was an option that Israel could have done when responding to attacks; but chose not to.
If such an option is needed; they shold do exactly what the Arabs did in '48. Alert the population that they are going to sweep through and advise those that want to leave to get out before it is to late.

Those that stay are either loyal to Israel or become exiled by Israel.

Ethnic cleaning as long as it is not wholesale murder seems to be acceptable for the UN.

Or is it because of the Jews doing it that it becomes bitter?

 

[Lemon law]

There is little that the UN can do when civilian groups within a country, resort to orgies of ethnic cleansing similar to what happened in Iraq.

But please do not think for one mad Moment, that the recent Israelli policy of collective punishment as practiced by Israel in Lebanon and Gaza, is not in fact an international war crime.

Israel may think it can white wash itself, but larger and larger segments of the international community MAY be on Israel like stink on shit if Israel tries to get away with it again. Which is not to say the that charges of Israeli war crimes do not STILL hang over Israel head.

 

[tvarad]

There is little that the UN can do when civilian groups within a country, resort to orgies of ethnic cleansing similar to what happened in Iraq.

But please do not think for one mad Moment, that the recent Israelli policy of collective punishment as practiced by Israel in Lebanon and Gaza, is not in fact an international war crime.

Israel may think it can white wash itself, but larger and larger segments of the international community MAY be on Israel like stink on shit if Israel tries to get away with it again. Which is not to say the that charges of Israeli war crimes do not STILL hang over Israel head.

When you see the goings on in the Middle-East and Iran, where the leaders of countries like Syria, Iran, Libya, Bahrain have set upon their own people with such a vengeance you are starting to look ludicrous by holding Israel responsible for what it did for it's own national interest and what it will surely do in the future if it's threatened again. Ironically, Israel is one of the few places where the indigenous Arab population is not revolting against it's own government and probably one of the only place where an Arab politician can criticize her own country and not have both her and her family disappear in the middle of the night.

 

[Lemon law]

When you see the goings on in the Middle-East and Iran, where the leaders of countries like Syria, Iran, Libya, Bahrain have set upon their own people with such a vengeance you are starting to look ludicrous by holding Israel responsible for what it did for it's own national interest and what it will surely do in the future if it's threatened again. Ironically, Israel is one of the few places where the indigenous Arab population is not revolting against it's own government and probably one of the only place where an Arab politician can criticize her own country and not have both her and her family disappear in the middle of the night.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its rather odd that Israel had to admit its still engaging in a in a systematic deportation program against its own Arabs. Some 140,000 Israeli Arabs in recent years.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Its rather odd that Israel had to admit its still engaging in a in a systematic deportation program against its own Arabs. Some 140,000 Israeli Arabs in recent years.

your point??
ahh..i get it you don`t have one....you contnue on with your smoke screens and enuendos without coming out directly answering people questions and you have no links to support your wild dreams...

 

[Freshgeardude]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its rather odd that Israel had to admit its still engaging in a in a systematic deportation program against its own Arabs. Some 140,000 Israeli Arabs in recent years.

The arabs living in israel on the inside of the 1967 border live with full rights equal to that of the jews or christians.

What you want to do is dispute the arabs in the west bank by calling them "citizens" while israel can "never own the land"

Make your mind up idiot

 

[Abwx]

I am stating that this is an option should the Palestinian state attack Israel.

For many decades , israel is attacking the palestinians
to expel them from their native land, so according to your
own words, they are entitled to ethnically cleanse palestine
from any jewish presence.

Funny how one can talk of a mythical "palestinian threat"
while the reality is just the reverse, i.e, israel not only
threatening, but attacking the palestinians in a daily basis..

Indeed, you are so deeply biaised that you dont realize
how pointless your posts are.

As for recognizing israel, Hamas is totally right since
a recognition of israel would have far more consequences
than israel s recognizing the palestinians.

Indeed, israel refuse to recognize the palestnians rights,
so why should the palestinians make the first step ?..

We can be sure that if the palestinians do it first, israel will
refuse to recognize them and will use the new situation
to enforce a more radical ethnic cleansing..

 

[JEDIYoda]

For many decades , israel is attacking the palestinians
to expel them from their native land, so according to your
own words, they are entitled to ethnically cleanse palestine
from any jewish presence. -- if israel wanted too they could expell the palestinians anytime they so choose...what you say is so pro-Palestinian based on what?

Funny how one can talk of a mythical "palestinian threat"
while the reality is just the reverse, i.e, israel not only
threatening, but attacking the palestinians in a daily basis.....links pleae?? Daily basis...thats a crock and you know it!!

Indeed, you are so deeply biaised that you dont realize
how pointless your posts are. -- actually you are the one who is biased! There is noway you can back your mis-informed diatrive up with links...

As for recognizing israel, Hamas is totally right since
a recognition of israel would have far more consequences
than israel s recognizing the palestinians.-- exactly!! I am glad you agree with me!! That if Hamas recognized israel it would lead to peace!!

Indeed, israel refuse to recognize the palestnians rights,
so why should the palestinians make the first step ?..who are the people who call themselves Palestinians??? Are they truly Palestinian? If so prove it with a link...

We can be sure that if the palestinians do it first, israel will
refuse to recognize them and will use the new situation
to enforce a more radical ethnic cleansing..actually no we cannot be sure!! if the people who call themselves Palestinian recognize Israel it will not matter. Because as long as the elected Government refuses to recognize Israel there will never be a peace!!

Why should Israel give the people who call themselves Palestinian everything they demand??

 

[SpeedZealot369]

If anyone wants to hear my opinion - as someone who's been living in Israel for the past 4 years.

1. The Israeli army does everything it possibly can to prevent innocent deaths. So much so that many soldiers are afraid to shoot because they might be put on trial. Israel has the most self critical army I have ever seen.

2. Israel has been in pursuit of peace ever since the beginning. However it's neighbors want none of it. Look back to every single war that broke out- who started it? 1948 war was started not by "Palestinians" (back then that term didn't exist) but by every single Arab country surrounding Israel.

Israel has made concession upon concession over the past decades in order to show the world that they want peace, yet they are accused of being Nazis and of genocide. Utterly ridiculous.

3. I never understood why the world insists that Israel is the bad guy but in my experience from living here, it's not the case at all, it's the blood thirsty Arab's that are the problem and the world that makes them out to be victims and the persecuted ones.

4. Ultimately Israel is a miracle all on it's own for not only surviving but breaking records in all science fields and innovations, while being surrounded by 300 million Arabs who hate them. I will never truly understand how that is possible.

In short- Israel is a friend of piece no matter what your bbc or cnn biased antisemitic (anti israel = anti sametic) news channels say, if you don't believe it come here yourself and you'll see arab men and women on the buses in jerusalem and getting treated at Israeli hospitals, while if a jew goes into an arab city he most likely won't come out alive.