No sense in pretending. Hamas will never recognize Israel.

[MegaWorks]

Does Israel recognize the sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories?

Does Israel recognize Palestinian autonomy?

 

[woolfe9999]

Who cares if they recognize them or not? Who cares if they reserve the right to attempt to eliminate them in the future? I mean most nations on earth for most of human history have operated under the implicit assumption that their neighbors might try to kill them at some point in the not too distant future.

I for one will never understand this obsession with meaningless recognition or some sort of bland, insipid declaration of a 'right to exist' that isn't even worth the paper its printed on. (and which no other country demands of its neighbors, even neighbors that have successfully caused them to cease to exist in the past) If a Palestinian state is going to solve the problems they have over there it isn't going to be because they succeeded in making Hamas stop saying mean things, it will be because of the real ways in which that affects people's lives.

This falls considerably below your usual standard of logic. How exactly do you negotiate with someone who says, I will never, ever recognize your right to exist. You are my eternal enemy and I will not stop until you are destroyed. Sure, I'll accept whatever concessions you want to GIVE me for now, as an interim step to destroying you, but I will never abandon the goal of destroying you. Would you sit down at a negotiating table with someone who is taking that position? It's a pretty basic, yes or no question.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Does Israel recognize the sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories?

Does Israel recognize Palestinian autonomy?

No

No

 

[woolfe9999]

No

No

Wrong. Israel is at least willing to recognize Palestinian sovreighnty under certain circumstances, i.e. if an accord is reached between the two sides that would provide for statehood. Hamas has said it will not ever, under any circumstances, recognize Israeli sovreighnty.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Lest we forget the lesson of South Africa, that ended up having to bow to international pressure to extend voting rights to its black majority.

And instead of the predicted bloodbaths of revenge, South Africa is peaceful and thriving without any of the predicted revenge bloodbaths.

Have you been to South Africa? It's not a nice place.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Wrong. Israel is at least willing to recognize Palestinian sovreighnty under certain circumstances, i.e. if an accord is reached between the two sides that would provide for statehood.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

I agree, stop getting in the way and let Israel take it all.

meh, i'm not picking between the two religious fuck-ups...

 

[fskimospy]

This falls considerably below your usual standard of logic. How exactly do you negotiate with someone who says, I will never, ever recognize your right to exist. You are my eternal enemy and I will not stop until you are destroyed. Sure, I'll accept whatever concessions you want to GIVE me for now, as an interim step to destroying you, but I will never abandon the goal of destroying you. Would you sit down at a negotiating table with someone who is taking that position? It's a pretty basic, yes or no question.

First of all, no state has a right to exist. None. Israel's repeated requests for some acknowledgement of it is retarded.

As for the rest, sure. No one is advocating unilateral concessions, and if that's all they are willing to do then it was never a negotiation to begin with. I'd bet you'd be awfully surprised at what Hamas is willing to go along with however, particularly as part of a Hamas/Fatah coalition.

You know the stated ideological goal of the Soviet Union was to keep the capitalists at bay and protect the proletariat of the world until they destroyed the capitalist states from within, right? I mean I guess they were only trying to facilitate countries being destroyed from within as opposed to externally, but both of those positions are pretty damn close to one another. Still, we negotiated with the Soviet Union all the time. Why? Because there are still areas of common interest.

 

[EagleKeeper]

OK fair enough, for now. If Zahar doesn't represent the general position of Hamas, who in Hamas has said they *are* willing to recognize Israel? Please provide name and quotation.

I asked something similar that a couple of weeks ago when the first announcement happened

This is when he stated that Zahar was not the PM of Hamas and had no authority.
When called on it; LL ducked and ran.

Because Zahar does not conform to his ideals; the Zahar is not a critical player and is a nobody. The same is the way he tries to discard Netanyuhu.

Hamas has agreed to be polite to Fatah but have not agreed to give up their position. One has to just pay attention to the actual verbiage that they choose to use. It does not preclude them from causing trouble; nor does it ensure that they will stop trouble from Gaza.

Same as before Cast Lead.

 

[EagleKeeper]

First of all, no state has a right to exist. None. Israel's repeated requests for some acknowledgement of it is retarded.

As for the rest, sure. No one is advocating unilateral concessions, and if that's all they are willing to do then it was never a negotiation to begin with. I'd bet you'd be awfully surprised at what Hamas is willing to go along with however, particularly as part of a Hamas/Fatah coalition.

You know the stated ideological goal of the Soviet Union was to keep the capitalists at bay and protect the proletariat of the world until they destroyed the capitalist states from within, right? I mean I guess they were only trying to facilitate countries being destroyed from within as opposed to externally, but both of those positions are pretty damn close to one another. Still, we negotiated with the Soviet Union all the time. Why? Because there are still areas of common interest.

While we talked with the Soviets; did either side continue to lob missiles at each other?

The Palestinians have continually stated that there must be X, Y, Z done before they will even talk.
Setting up preconditions that have been deemed to be unacceptable is a sure fire recipe for deliberate

 

[EagleKeeper]

And who is going to dislodge them from these territories??

The Arab nations under the auspice of the UN :sneaky:
'48 all over again.

The UN will again step in and protect the Arabs when their butts are being sandblasted.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Just more Israeli cheer leading as Egypt, as I predicted has opened on border crossing to Gaza without Israel inspection.

But in related news, a New Gaza flotilla has announced its departure date.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/world/middleeast/10briefs-ART-Gaza.html?_r=1&ref=middleeast

And its been announced many EU legislators will be sailing with it.

Another card not yet played is the Netanyuhu speech to the US congress due in late May.

And all I can say, is that the odds that Israeli can extend its over long 44 year military occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem into 2012, is rapidly fading to about zero.

Larger munitions getting into Gaza just mean greater damage to Gaza when Hamas pulls the trigger or allows it to be pulled. Isreal will not care who is responsible - the fact that they are launched out of Gaza places the Palestinians in charge there responsible.

w/ respect to the aid ships; will they have the guts to try to actually run an intercept. Make sure that there are plenty of life vests for the activists and EU legislators if they want a confrontation.

Is this for aid or publicity. Already, the article states that it is being timed for political reasons. Therefore it is the later - publicity - aid is just a cover.:thumbsdown:

 

[fskimospy]

While we talked with the Soviets; did either side continue to lob missiles at each other?

The Palestinians have continually stated that there must be X, Y, Z done before they will even talk.
Setting up preconditions that have been deemed to be unacceptable is a sure fire recipe for deliberate

Yes, why do you ask?

We were in frequent negotiations with the Soviets while either we or they were directly participating in military actions against the other. Soviet pilots flying fighters against us in Korea, supplying/advising the Vietnamese, we had negotiations while we were helping kill Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan, etc. None of this was a secret to either party involved.

Diplomacy isn't a personal thing, it's business.

 

[dali71]

Lest we forget the lesson of South Africa, that ended up having to bow to international pressure to extend voting rights to its black majority.

And instead of the predicted bloodbaths of revenge, South Africa is peaceful and thriving without any of the predicted revenge bloodbaths.

So what about the ongoing Boer murders? Why does Genocide Watch list South Africa (at level 5 out of 7) in their countries at risk, with Boers/refugees as the victims and black racists as the killers? Are you trolling, or are you truly that ignorant?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Proxies - Korea/Vietnam/Afghanistan is not the same as ICBMs or even Hawk/Patriots being fired from one country at another. My question was; did either side lob missiles at each other while in peace negotiations (SALT, etc)

Gaza is not using proxies against Israel - weapons are coming from that piece of land, aimed at Israel and/or Israeli citizens.

You did not have missiles flying from US or Russian land against the other. Were there special forces from either side slipping into the other's country and blowing up installations or attacking civilians.

The only weapons that the USSR used directly against US forces were SAMs when were were overflying the Soviets

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy, over exaggerates when he says., "This is when he stated that Zahar was not the PM of Hamas and had no authority. When called on it; LL ducked and ran."

Think Common Courtesy think, since the joint Fatah Hamas government will not name their final members for another 10 days and final elections are some eight months away, anyone who thinks they know the answers to that questions have to be more than Psychic.

But we do know the its basically Abbas and the PA and not Hamas who will speak for the Pals at least until the end of 9/2011.

As for Hamas, its only a short part of the entire 44 year history of Israeli military occupation of the disputed territories. Leadership among democratically elected governments come and they go, dare we hope the leadership of Hamas and the Bozo Netanyuhu leadership of Israel get thrown into the scrap bin of history at the same time. Which allows sensible moderates on both sides to move towards a just peace rather than rely on nutty extremists to ever agree.

Then there is the other NEW NEW question, its no problem for the world and the Pals to recognize the right of Israel to exist, but will anyone in the world recognize Israel as ONLY a Jewish state THEOCRACY? That Jewish theocracy stuff is a new new new demand cooked up by Netanyuhu and his crazed settler party supporters. And has never been seen before.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

First of all, no state has a right to exist. None.

For this purpose I'll accept your statement. Let's go on from that. If Palestine wishes to have an independent state then it will need Israel to approve, because Israel is more powerful and Palestine has no right to exist as you say. Israel has no need to allow a stated hostile nation to form near it.

I'd bet you'd be awfully surprised at what Hamas is willing to go along with however, particularly as part of a Hamas/Fatah coalition.

No one knows what Hamas will go along with so your statement is baseless. Well, we know what they don't want to put up with and that's Israel. So be it.

You know the stated ideological goal of the Soviet Union was to keep the capitalists at bay and protect the proletariat of the world until they destroyed the capitalist states from within, right? I mean I guess they were only trying to facilitate countries being destroyed from within as opposed to externally, but both of those positions are pretty damn close to one another. Still, we negotiated with the Soviet Union all the time. Why? Because there are still areas of common interest.

You omit one thing, and that is the USSR was already in place. The US had every right to keep it from forming as you say but destruction was a given to both sides. They negotiated largely to prevent that.

Since Israel hasn't obligation to allow a hostile nation to form next door is it perfectly reasonable for them to remove the threat.

Thanks for that.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So what about the ongoing Boer murders? Why does Genocide Watch list South Africa (at level 5 out of 7) in their countries at risk, with Boers/refugees as the victims and black racists as the killers? Are you trolling, or are you truly that ignorant?

The answer is YES!! to all the above about Lemon law...sadly...but factually correct!!

 

[irishScott]

Ooh, then after all that war and death we will have millions of Palestinians living on land occupied by Israel. I'm sure there will be no problems then!

Most of the militants will be dead, or committing acts of war that will cause them to be killed.

If Palestinians get statehood and decide to commit mass suicide down the barrel of an Israeli rifle, Darwin award for those who do so, and it will all be internationally legal.

 

[woolfe9999]

Common Courtesy, over exaggerates when he says., "This is when he stated that Zahar was not the PM of Hamas and had no authority. When called on it; LL ducked and ran."

Think Common Courtesy think, since the joint Fatah Hamas government will not name their final members for another 10 days and final elections are some eight months away, anyone who thinks they know the answers to that questions have to be more than Psychic.

But we do know the its basically Abbas and the PA and not Hamas who will speak for the Pals at least until the end of 9/2011.

As for Hamas, its only a short part of the entire 44 year history of Israeli military occupation of the disputed territories. Leadership among democratically elected governments come and they go, dare we hope the leadership of Hamas and the Bozo Netanyuhu leadership of Israel get thrown into the scrap bin of history at the same time. Which allows sensible moderates on both sides to move towards a just peace rather than rely on nutty extremists to ever agree.

Then there is the other NEW NEW question, its no problem for the world and the Pals to recognize the right of Israel to exist, but will anyone in the world recognize Israel as ONLY a Jewish state THEOCRACY? That Jewish theocracy stuff is a new new new demand cooked up by Netanyuhu and his crazed settler party supporters. And has never been seen before.

I see what you did there. First, you claimed:

The myth in this thread is to assume Zahar speaks for all of Hamas.

Now you backpeddle to point out that Fatah, not Hamas, will speak for the pals for the time being, and opine that Hamas will hopefully be discarded for more moderate elements. Yet you still haven't backed your original assertion, that Zahar was not in effect asserting the broad policy position of Hamas but is, rather, a radical within the organization. You obviously make up about half the stuff in your posts as you are writing them, and when called on it, you either ignore it or shift the goal posts. You and facts just do not get along well.

 

[bfdd]

Why have we not allowed war between the Palestinians and the Israeli's? I mean that's what they want right? The Palestinians want to take their land back and refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to it, they want to leave the eternal option of war open so they can take it back. Why don't they just have a war then? Oh that's right, because the Palestinians would be wiped off the map in a day. Can't have that... morons.

If idiots want war, let them have war and let them die in their war. Then the idiots will be no more.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL has implied that Zahar is a nobody. However, in the media, he is continually being stated as senior Hamas leader.

LL apparently does not understand what leadership positions mean.

Previously when called on to provide a link indicating such for Ismail Haniyeh. he avoided such.

From the thread below are the postings. As can been seen; LL makes a claim based on his ignorance/blindsideness and when called on it, is unable to back it up.
I offered him to opportunity to prove his statement and he has not done so.

And he then expects that any other statements about his crystal ball are valid. He makes up facts to support his dreams and then when called; ducks and weaves to avoid the truth. He must have trained under Ali. Except that he has no stinger.

Thread

IMHO, the Common Courtesy understanding shows only his own ignorance of the situation.

1. To cite Ismail Haniyeh, former prime minister of the Hamas government in the Gaza as the current spokesman for Hamas is prime ignorance on the face of it. The fact is and remains, there were factions inside of Hamas who opposed any Fatah reunification deal and Haniyeh was one of them. But the majority of Hamas signed up for the reunification meaning Haniyeh now is in the out of power Hamas minority. In short, to say Haniyeh speaks for Hamas is about as accurate as saying either Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Kucinish speaks for the united voice of the USA, and even that is a best case scenario.

2. Then if Common Courtesy has not totally discredited himself by now, he rises to new heights of ignorance in not understanding anything about Osama's Wahabist religious beliefs regarding the Shia Muslims and Iran. In short, Ossama Bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim blood enemy of Iran and the Shia's in Iran. And given that both Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian proxies meant Ossma Bin Laden was never on the side of Hamas, so its theater of the absurd when the out of power Haniyeh sings the praises of his former blood enemy. In short, its just a sign of the desperation of Haniyeh and nothing more.

3. The fact that the former Iranian proxy in Hamas and still Hezbollah Iranian proxy in Lebanon carried the bulk of Israeli Muslim opposition does much to explain why Al-Quida was not very active in Israel.

LL - you seems to again be selective with your facts.

Ismail Haniyeh is prime minister of Hamas.
IF you can provide links otherwise; then do so and I will leave Palestine threads alone until September; IF you can not provide such links; take your selective/false facts out of P&N until September. Agreed?

AQ influence w/ respect to Palestinians is not being discussed. What is being discussed is how the proclamation of Hamas sitting down to break bread with Fatah is continually showing to be overhyped by supporters of the Palestinians and is being overblown by the internal politics of the Palestinian groups. As such without one UNIFIED voice; their chances of the statehood is diminishing.

What sounded good on the Egyptian news release has been continually shredded by announcements from Hamas. Without any lists of who in Hamas was at the Egyptian kiss&make up meetings; one can not tell how much was actually a wishful announcement vs factual. IF Hamas was serious; what are they accomplishing by trying to shred the agreement - power shift away from Fatah?

 

[Lemon law]

Its interesting to see Common Courtesy, saying, "Previously when called on to provide a link indicating such for Ismail Haniyeh. he avoided such."

But in case no one noticed, recent statements by Haniyeh, has moderated his past position in the past few days a great deal. And now that Haniyeh has changed his position, the new Israeli Boogie man is Zahar.

On the other hand, from the standpoint of the international community, even if Netanyuhu is an extremist idiot, just look at recent A . Lieberman statements to find a revolting idiot 110% sure to alienate the International community.

 

[Craig234]

So what about the ongoing Boer murders? Why does Genocide Watch list South Africa (at level 5 out of 7) in their countries at risk, with Boers/refugees as the victims and black racists as the killers? Are you trolling, or are you truly that ignorant?

What? A country with a long history of colonization hugely oppressing a group, leaves that group less than perfectly ready to run the country to the highest standards?

Why, that makes no sense. I mean, if we let the prisoners in a prison take over, I'd expect them to run a very effective, safe facility.

Of course, there's a difference - the oppressed blacks are *entitled* to run their country badly - and hopefully improve over time, as they improve things from how bad they were, with such widespread discrimination, democratic institutions, political education, and so on.

I'm not going to defend the indefensible wrongs that go on there - but to say that the alternative of perpetual racist apartheid colonization is not acceptable.

Rather, there should be constructive efforts made to push for improvement.

 

[Lemon law]

Why have we not allowed war between the Palestinians and the Israeli's? I mean that's what they want right? The Palestinians want to take their land back and refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to it, they want to leave the eternal option of war open so they can take it back. Why don't they just have a war then? Oh that's right, because the Palestinians would be wiped off the map in a day. Can't have that... morons.

If idiots want war, let them have war and let them die in their war. Then the idiots will be no more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bdds position boils down to one of power, Heil Hitler, why did not the international community let Hitler finally finish his final solution to the Jewish question?

Thank God Hitler was stopped, and now we must say, on a fairness basis, that the Israelis are now the new Nazi's running roughshod over Palestinian Human rights?

What is Israel waiting for, when they can build mass exterminator gas oven as a final solution for the Palestinian questions? But such is the implied solution of Bfdd. Might makes right and side with the powerful.