No more desktop Linux systems in the German Foreign Office

[Chiefcrowe]

Interesting!

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/i...ems-in-the-German-Foreign-Office-1191122.html

 

[Genx87]

Gee what a surprise. There is more to the cost of a desktop OS than its monetary value?

 

[JackMDS]

Yet another example to how Political/Emotional (FanBoy) Dogma is not a tool for objective reality based decision processes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

 

[irishScott]

Most people use windows at home, therefore it's what they would want at work. Makes sense. Granted there are some damn good Windows imitators out there but it's still not the same.

The internship I worked at operated on the same principle. Desktops were Windows, servers were all UNIX/Linux.

 

[lxskllr]

The problem is they didn't switch everyone. They had Linux machines trying to work with Windows machines. Going 100% open source will cost some money up front, but you get it back over the long term by saving licensing fees, and intangibly, by being able to have software customized for your needs.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

The problem is they didn't switch everyone. They had Linux machines trying to work with Windows machines. Going 100% open source will cost some money up front, but you get it back over the long term by saving licensing fees, and intangibly, by being able to have software customized for your needs.

Don't forget training your IT staff. There are tons of people out there that are experts with Windows or Mac, but through in Linux and they don't know squat.
You'll end up paying a hell of a lot of money to either get your IT staff up to speed on Linux or you'll have to fire them and hope you can find enough qualified people with expert level of knowledge of Linux to replace them.

Now let's get to the apps. Basic Office type apps you have covered. But what about all the special apps that are currently setup only for Windows? Corporate tax applications? Inventory control apps?

there's a lot more to a total computing environment than just the operating system. You have to account for hardware and all the current applications and foreseable apps in the future. Then internal support, and then question the level of support from these Open source Vendors. Can they give 2-4 hour response times 24/7?

 

[lxskllr]

Don't forget training your IT staff. There are tons of people out there that are experts with Windows or Mac, but through in Linux and they don't know squat.
You'll end up paying a hell of a lot of money to either get your IT staff up to speed on Linux or you'll have to fire them and hope you can find enough qualified people with expert level of knowledge of Linux to replace them.

Now let's get to the apps. Basic Office type apps you have covered. But what about all the special apps that are currently setup only for Windows? Corporate tax applications? Inventory control apps?

there's a lot more to a total computing environment than just the operating system. You have to account for hardware and all the current applications and foreseable apps in the future. Then internal support, and then question the level of support from these Open source Vendors. Can they give 2-4 hour response times 24/7?

Sure, that's why I said it would cost some money up front. Believe it or not, there was a time when nobody used computers for anything. There wasn't any Linux, and there wasn't any Windows. People learned, and adapted to the new way of doing things. There's no reason you can't do the same with open source. The pay off is a future that doesn't lock you into specific vendors, or obsolete technology.

 

[Genx87]

Sure, that's why I said it would cost some money up front. Believe it or not, there was a time when nobody used computers for anything. There wasn't any Linux, and there wasn't any Windows. People learned, and adapted to the new way of doing things. There's no reason you can't do the same with open source. The pay off is a future that doesn't lock you into specific vendors, or obsolete technology.

This rarely ever works in the wild. People who arent computer literate learning a new system? Including possibly a new accounting\inventory\ect system? I see companies using systems that are years if not decades old. Then the training issue for staff.

It is one of those things that looks good on paper but a nightmare in implementation. Licensing costs surprisingly are not that big a deal. Think about it. I am going pay a designer 80K to generate x amount of revenue on a windows box. So by going to linux I gain what? I save 100 bucks on an OS license? How much will I save on the application license? Will it do what he needs to generate the same revenue? At the end of the day licensing just isnt an issue for most firms. Cost of the employee and hardware is much higher. And most important, they need the software to do what the employee needs to generate revenue or value expectations. Free becomes worthless if output drops.

 

[lxskllr]

It is one of those things that looks good on paper but a nightmare in implementation. Licensing costs surprisingly are not that big a deal. Think about it. I am going pay a designer 80K to generate x amount of revenue on a windows box. So by going to linux I gain what? I save 100 bucks on an OS license? How much will I save on the application license?

I agree. The licensing cost is small potatoes. The real value is the ability to add features yourself. Need your software to do something it doesn't do out of the box? You put it in. Need your software to run on something more secure than IE6? You put it in... A couple million Euros is pocket change to a government, but that'll buy a lot of coding time to make something that exactly fits your needs, and it's yours forever, to use, update and expand on as you wish.

 

[Genx87]

I agree. The licensing cost is small potatoes. The real value is the ability to add features yourself. Need your software to do something it doesn't do out of the box? You put it in. Need your software to run on something more secure than IE6? You put it in... A couple million Euros is pocket change to a government, but that'll buy a lot of coding time to make something that exactly fits your needs, and it's yours forever, to use, update and expand on as you wish.

But that requires you to keep a staff to update and maintain that code. When it breaks, somebody to fix it. It can be expensive. More expensive than purchasing a product and paying for a support contract to fix those issues.

 

[lxskllr]

But that requires you to keep a staff to update and maintain that code. When it breaks, somebody to fix it. It can be expensive. More expensive than purchasing a product and paying for a support contract to fix those issues.

Maybe, I don't know... I don't think the answer's clearcut, and I don't think Germany took the best approach. There's a huge area between "Yay! Free software!", and "You get what you pay for, and you get no support". It would take a big change to do it right, but big changes produce the big results. Either spectacular failures, or spectacular successes. I think in the end, it would be a spectacular success, but you have to be willing to deal with temporary setbacks, and you have to throw some money at it.

 

[Puddle Jumper]

I agree. The licensing cost is small potatoes. The real value is the ability to add features yourself. Need your software to do something it doesn't do out of the box? You put it in. Need your software to run on something more secure than IE6? You put it in... A couple million Euros is pocket change to a government, but that'll buy a lot of coding time to make something that exactly fits your needs, and it's yours forever, to use, update and expand on as you wish.

Except then you are responsible for supporting the application. If a large firm buys specialized software from XYZ and that software has a major problem they can simply call up XYZ and get them working on the problem. If they build the custom software in house then they have to deal with the problem themselves and, if the issue is severe enough, take the fall for the problem.

 

[lxskllr]

Except then you are responsible for supporting the application. If a large firm buys specialized software from XYZ and that software has a major problem they can simply call up XYZ and get them working on the problem. If they build the custom software in house then they have to deal with the problem themselves and, if the issue is severe enough, take the fall for the problem.

That's assuming XYZ is still around to get support from. Governments especially shouldn't be dependent on outside services. Using open source doesn't forgo commercial sales either. There's no reason outside companies couldn't develop open source software for the government. If XYZ went under, you'd still have the code to work off of.

 

[Genx87]

That's assuming XYZ is still around to get support from. Governments especially shouldn't be dependent on outside services. Using open source doesn't forgo commercial sales either. There's no reason outside companies couldn't develop open source software for the government. If XYZ went under, you'd still have the code to work off of.

Typically if a vendor goes tits up, the lucrative support division is auctioned off. Some company will be supporting the software if the company ceases to exist.

 

[Anteaus]

I agree. The licensing cost is small potatoes. The real value is the ability to add features yourself. Need your software to do something it doesn't do out of the box? You put it in. Need your software to run on something more secure than IE6? You put it in... A couple million Euros is pocket change to a government, but that'll buy a lot of coding time to make something that exactly fits your needs, and it's yours forever, to use, update and expand on as you wish.

This is true, but then it also depends on the dynamic of the work environment. If all they need is database access and an office productivity suite, then the opportunity costs of running a licence free OS is actually higher than running a license based system. Some would like to claim that licensing software is the wrong answer in every case, but I agree with them switching to Windows in this case.

Linux is a great tool, but sometimes you don't need the whole tool box when a couple screwdrivers and a hammer will do the job. Of course you can argue that it is better to have a big toolbox full of free tools than to pay a high price for a few tools, but if all those tools cause a decrease in productivity then sometimes its worth the money.

Like someone else said, license costs are only a piece of the pie.

 

[spikespiegal]

If you read the article the issue is with low level peripheral drivers and other pesky stuff that we all know is a royal pain with Linux. This 'ditch-digging' is already polished in Windows because the Open Source crowd just doesn't want to deal with. Face it, it's just not as much fun writing and compiling the low level stuff -vs- mainstream apps that get you more attention and are just plain more interesting to write. There are just some things you can't do with Wine and aren't efficient inside a VM.

For example, office MGR or director makes a decision to move to a specific line of printers to meet a productivity or cost objective, and then is suddenly informed by the IT department that the drivers just don't work well in Linux. Or, there's some document functionality that's missing in the open source drivers. Even though it may be something trashy and evil like host based printing drivers it doesn't matter. The business units will eventually prevail.

Open Office is a whole 'nuther issue. Outlook is becoming the 20 ton gorilla in the workplace, and is rapidly becoming entrenched as the main MS Office app upon which all other applications circle around. People like it...{shrug}.

 

[Nothinman]

If you read the article the issue is with low level peripheral drivers and other pesky stuff that we all know is a royal pain with Linux.

All I saw was some vague hand waving about drivers and users complaining, nothing solid. I wouldn't be surprised if some new officials got elected into that office and decided to change policy for completely unrelated reasons.