No longer depending on oil but on CO2 when making plastics...

May 11, 2008
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This is very interesting, imagine extracting CO2 from the air around us.
Then covert that CO2 by a specific enzyme into a product that can be used to once again make plastics. That would reduce the need for oil and we could use all industrial sources of CO2 as sources for plastic. Creating more and more the desired closed loop. :)
And be less dependent on war mongering unstable countries.

Add the possible formic acid storage idea for clean electrical vehicles.
Life could become a lot more cleaner.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/remodeled-enzyme-converts-carbon-dioxide-into-methane/

An engineered enzyme is the first single biological catalyst that converts carbon dioxide into a renewable form of energy: methane. Surprisingly, the same enzyme can use carbon dioxide to make an important ingredient in plastics as well.

Recycling carbon dioxide by turning it into fuels like methanol (CH3OH) or methane (CH4) might be one way to slow the CO2 accumulation in our atmosphere. But that's quite a challenge, because CO2 is a pretty inert molecule and doesn't readily participate in chemical reactions. So chemists have developed metal-containing catalysts to assist in the reduction reactions that convert it to methane and other carbon-containing small molecules. Alternatively, bacteria can use CO2 to make methane, but they use a series of proteins to catalyze the transformation.

Lance Seefeldt at Utah State University and his colleagues study a bacterial enzyme called a nitrogenase, which reduces nitrogen gas (N2) to ammonia (NH3) with the help of a cluster of iron and molybdenum atoms buried inside the protein. The reduction of carbon dioxide to methane requires a transfer of eight electrons, just as ammonia production does, so the scientists wondered if an altered version of this enzyme could accept and reduce carbon dioxide.

They changed two amino acids in one subunit of this protein. The altered nitrogenase converts carbon dioxide to methane for 20 minutes and then slows down. The enzyme’s reaction rate and the number of reactions it catalyzes are comparable to similar soluble metal catalysts.

But the real surprise to Seefeldt was that the enzyme triggered a more complex reaction: it combined two molecules, carbon dioxide and acetylene, to form propylene, a three-carbon ingredient in many plastics. That particular reaction is new for any catalyst, inorganic or biological, he says.

The scientists want to test other versions of the enzyme to see if it can use CO2 to build other kinds of molecules, too. Enzymes are used as biocatalysts to make some chemicals on an industrial scale, but that’s not Seefeldt’s ultimate goal in engineering this enzyme. He wants to extend this enzyme’s catalytic ability to better understand how the protein works.

Lessons about how the binding site environment helps catalyze a particular reaction might translate into clues that help other scientists build better catalysts for the production of methane and other commercially relevant chemicals. This altered enzyme won’t solve our carbon dioxide or energy problems on its own. But its structure, or that of its yet-to-be-found mutant cousins, might provide some useful hints that do help us address those issues by recycling CO2 through chemistry.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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Pretty cool stuff. Closing the carbon cycle is what is going to change our energy infrastructure I think, allowing us to keep using all the infrastructure devoted to hydrocarbons distribution but minimize the environmental impact of CO2. Going from methane to other complicated molecules as feedstocks for fuel and industrial chemical production (via fischer-tropsch type processes or other methods) will allow us to get away from drilled or fracked oil out of the ground.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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It's been possible to convert CO2 + something containing hydrogen to oil and gas for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process


And you still have to get the energy from somewhere to produce the oil and gas, since they have more chemical energy than CO2.
I think ultimately this will come from some sort of photocatalyst, either directly or through a catalytic relay system, so the terminal energy source will be the sun, as it should be.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Pretty cool stuff. Closing the carbon cycle is what is going to change our energy infrastructure I think, allowing us to keep using all the infrastructure devoted to hydrocarbons distribution but minimize the environmental impact of CO2. Going from methane to other complicated molecules as feedstocks for fuel and industrial chemical production (via fischer-tropsch type processes or other methods) will allow us to get away from drilled or fracked oil out of the ground.

Hopefully, it does look like an interesting concept.

Solar powered plastics production resulting in lower CO2 levels ?

Are a lot of possibilities there I would imagine, one way or another.

Solar was the first thing popped into my mind even before reading you're second post :)
 
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It's been possible to convert CO2 + something containing hydrogen to oil and gas for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process

In the wiki, i see mainly CO (Carbon monoxide) and not really CO2 ( Carbon Dioxide).
But i am not a chemist, so i guess that process could be used for CO2 as well.


And you still have to get the energy from somewhere to produce the oil and gas, since they have more chemical energy than CO2.

True, but we should be able to be more carbon neutral with this process.
I would also think that 5th generation nuclear reactors are perfect for supplying electricity and using up all the nuclear waste we have laying around.

If humanity really wants to be cleaner and more environmental friendly, it is a possible path.
 

ALIVE

Golden Member
May 21, 2012
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It's been possible to convert CO2 + something containing hydrogen to oil and gas for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process


And you still have to get the energy from somewhere to produce the oil and gas, since they have more chemical energy than CO2.

hmm the germans in ww2 they were doing it

they were taking coal from their mines and enriched it with hydrogen to make oil

as long as you can find a source of energy to provide you can make the transformation its not something new

burning fuel gives energy
making fuel demands energy and because they process will not be 100% we will spend more energy to make the fuel than the energy we will take back from using it

but now with solar power wind power
there is an abundant energy source to use it to make fuel
which in the past there was not. and thus the research was more or less dead in the subject
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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Even so, plastic does not drive oil production. It's a byproduct in excess supply, which is why it's so cheap. Using reusable grocery bags may mean less grocery bags around to suffocate a small child, but it's laughable that it reduces demand for oil and BS that they don't degrade for "hundreds of years."

Go on: try to use a bag that has spent a year out in the sun, snow, and rain. The constituent parts are still there and detectable, but the inert flakes that are turning into plastic dust are not threatening wildlife any more than sand/dirt.
 
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Even so, plastic does not drive oil production. It's a byproduct in excess supply, which is why it's so cheap. Using reusable grocery bags may mean less grocery bags around to suffocate a small child, but it's laughable that it reduces demand for oil and BS that they don't degrade for "hundreds of years."

Go on: try to use a bag that has spent a year out in the sun, snow, and rain. The constituent parts are still there and detectable, but the inert flakes that are turning into plastic dust are not threatening wildlife any more than sand/dirt.

You might want to take a closer look a the shore of various oceans.
We do have a very large pile of plastic going round.
And it is true that some plastics fall apart when subjected to UV radiation, there are enough plastics that are UV resistant.

And there is a lot more made from oil then just plastics. Reducing the need for crude oil is a good thing.
A closed circle system that of course needs an external power system is far better than endlessly taking and throwing away.
 
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As a sidenote, in the Netherlands, most of the waste is burned. And the pollution norms are extremely strict. You can stand in the water vapor that is released by the incineration ovens because there is an extreme amount of filtering. Most of the heat that is produced is used to generate electricity or as a heat source to supply hot water to house holds or to be used by neighbouring industries.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
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You might want to take a closer look a the shore of various oceans.
We do have a very large pile of plastic going round.
And it is true that some plastics fall apart when subjected to UV radiation, there are enough plastics that are UV resistant.

And there is a lot more made from oil then just plastics. Reducing the need for crude oil is a good thing.
A closed circle system that of course needs an external power system is far better than endlessly taking and throwing away.


I was clearly talking about the overblown benefits of reusable shopping bags, so I was talking about a very particular form of plastic at that point. Other plastic building up is a different problem and not one that atmospheric CO2-derived plastic fixes either.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Even so, plastic does not drive oil production. It's a byproduct in excess supply, which is why it's so cheap. Using reusable grocery bags may mean less grocery bags around to suffocate a small child, but it's laughable that it reduces demand for oil and BS that they don't degrade for "hundreds of years."

Go on: try to use a bag that has spent a year out in the sun, snow, and rain. The constituent parts are still there and detectable, but the inert flakes that are turning into plastic dust are not threatening wildlife any more than sand/dirt.

Not all plastics are the same, to begin with.

That would be like saying surgical grade stainless steel is the same as cheap cold roll steel, to simplify it a bit.

Plastics do drive oil production a lot, but many other things besides just fuel.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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Not all plastics are the same, to begin with.
I never said I was talking about all plastics. I was pointing out the additionally flawed reasoning of a similar campaign where people think they will reduce oil consumption by switching to reuse able shopping bags.

That would be like saying surgical grade stainless steel is the same as cheap cold roll steel, to simplify it a bit.

Plastics do drive oil production a lot, but many other things besides just fuel.

I'll say it again: the plastic used in plastic bags is a byproduct of oil production. It is not what drives oils production.

Yes, there are many byproducts of oil production, but the demand that is driving the supply is NOT plastic bags (or other plastics). That's why we used paper bags and wood for so long. The byproducts were so plentiful due to the OTHER demand driving oil production that the price dropped until it became a suitable replacement for paper and wood.

You stop using plastic for shopping bags, production continues to be driven by other demands, the byproducts that would have gone into plastic bags stockpile until the price is so cheap that the market finds ANOTHER use for them. See how this works?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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I'm not arguing shopping bags :)

We actually have had cloth shopping bags we take to the store to shop with for over a decade now, I'd say a large majority of people in this area use them.

It's encouraged, the wife even has a few Publix ones like special Christmas ones they make for collectibles.

Those newer plastic shopping bags are at least made to degrade on purpose as opposed to McD's containers from decades ago at least.

They really do not figure into the equation much.
 
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I never said I was talking about all plastics. I was pointing out the additionally flawed reasoning of a similar campaign where people think they will reduce oil consumption by switching to reuse able shopping bags.

You are the missing the point behind such campaigns. People want to do something but cannot solve everything at once. That is why they start such campaigns to create awareness in the public. It is not going to be a gamechanger but is the beginning of the change op public perception. It is here the same, dispoable plastic bags are by law now only sold and not given away free. I do not mind, i always have aquality heavy duty shopping bag when i go shopping. And i have a disposable plastic bag in my backpack when i need to buy a few groceries. But i always keep the same plastic bag until it is worn out.

I'll say it again: the plastic used in plastic bags is a byproduct of oil production. It is not what drives oils production.

Yes, there are many byproducts of oil production, but the demand that is driving the supply is NOT plastic bags (or other plastics). That's why we used paper bags and wood for so long. The byproducts were so plentiful due to the OTHER demand driving oil production that the price dropped until it became a suitable replacement for paper and wood.

You stop using plastic for shopping bags, production continues to be driven by other demands, the byproducts that would have gone into plastic bags stockpile until the price is so cheap that the market finds ANOTHER use for them. See how this works?
I think plastic had a lot of benefits wood did not have. But if you really want to make achange, ask yourself how many tankers there are on the oceans and how much fuel they consume. And what can be done to make tankers more economic. Although i am sure, that the most modern tankers already have points on fuel economy.
 
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Sorry for all the typing errors. Iam typing on my android tablet. It sure promotes great self control. I still have too laugh when hearing people say that tablets will completely take over desktops and keyboards. Or speech control. It is al gadgetry. Imagine programming with an android touchscreen keyboard . I am missing ctrl + z,x,c,v.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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OMFG, world ist end. The enzyme gets released into the wild, mutates, and super converts all CO2 in urth to methane, super global warming, all dedz.
 
May 11, 2008
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It would be a good idea to create an enzyme that needs an external source of energy like heat or some form of em radiation. I am not sure, but i think that is how most enzymes or catalyst work. Makes me think of fungi and nuclear radiation.