No Hats, No Turbans, No Nothing in Pittsburgh Night Club

PunDogg

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2002
4,529
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I read this article in India Abroad Today, its about a Sikh Not being able to get into a Night Clubs in Pittsburgh, PA, where i live. I am not a sikh, but was wondering what you guys thought of this.

No hats in the club

Sikh's turban a 'no-no' at clubs

Wednesday, July 30, 2003

By Mackenzie Carpenter, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

One year ago last week, Harpreet Grewal decided to take his wife out on the town to celebrate her birthday. But when they arrived at Donzi's Restaurant in the Strip District, they were turned away, because Grewal, a Sikh, was wearing a turban.

He was angry, but he didn't pursue the matter, thinking it was an aberration.

Last week, Grewal, an Oakland resident, decided to take his wife, Gultaj, out again for her birthday, this time to Touch, also in the Strip -- and also run by the owner of Donzi's, Tom Jayson.

And once again, the couple was denied entry.

"While my wife and I were in line, we were approached by an employee of the club who told us I wouldn't be allowed in unless I removed my turban," said Grewal, 27, a doctor who is completing his residency in internal medicine at the University of Pittsburgh. "I explained that it is an article of my faith and I couldn't comply with such a request."

But the manager wouldn't budge.

"They told me they wouldn't even let a Jewish person in wearing a yarmulke unless he removed it," said Grewal. "They said, 'If we let you in, other people will start saying wearing hats is part of their religious beliefs, and we're trying to promote a certain image here.' "

What kind of image?

"An upscale image," said Grewal, a graduate of Stanford University and the University of Michigan Medical School.

The club had no comment on the incident or its dress code.

Such incidents are all too common nationwide, said Manjit Singh, executive director of Sikh Mediawatch and Resource Task Force, a Maryland-based nonprofit group that helps Sikhs protect their religious rights and monitors misinformation about them in the news media.

"Denial of services in public accommodations is an ongoing problem," said Singh, citing similar examples of Sikhs being turned away over the years at nightclubs in New Jersey and Texas for wearing turbans. Those cases were eventually settled, with the Sikh individuals allowed access. "Unfortunately, many times the establishment is unaware that the turban is a religious article of faith."

In 1997, he noted, a Princeton University computer science professor won a $10,000 settlement from a Mexican restaurant in New York City that had denied him entry when he refused to remove his turban. The restaurant also put up a sign that said: "Men must not wear hats, except for religious reasons."

The 500-year-old Sikh faith, which is based in Northern India, requires men to keep their heads covered. The religion promotes a distinct identity that is supposed to show a follower's devotion to God, which includes having unshorn hair and covering that hair with a cloth turban.

About 500,000 Sikhs live in the United States, with about 100 families in the Tri-State area who worship at a Sikh temple in Monroeville.

In some parts of the country, the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, made things worse for Sikhs, who were targeted for abuse and hate crimes, Singh said, because they resemble Afghans due to their turbans and skin color. Many people also associated them -- wrongly -- with Osama bin Laden, a Muslim.

The first victim of a post-Sept. 11 hate crime was a Sikh, and a month after the attacks, a Sikh was forced to remove his turban and have his hair examined at an airline check-in counter, to his great humiliation and distress, Singh said. Also Sikhs seeking to visit an inmate in a Washington state prison were denied access until officials were informed that the prison was violating federal civil rights laws, which guarantee equal access to places of public accommodation without discrimination on the grounds of race, color, religion or national origin.

The same situation may be true here, say some civil libertarians.

"This club clearly has a problem of religious discrimination, because it applies not just to Sikhs but Orthodox Jews, and I frankly cannot think of any reason why this club would continue this policy," said Vic Walczak, legal director of the Pittsburgh chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Grewal says he plans to fight the policy, but is at a loss to explain it.

"I was born and raised in the United States," Grewal said. "My parents emigrated here from India in 1970, and I have traveled all over the U.S. and the rest of the world without any such problem occurring.

"But more than anything, I'm just tired of this. I'm tired of being treated like a second-class citizen just because I have a different appearance, and I don't think I should be treated as anything less than equal."
 

FuZoR

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2001
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if they dont allow any hats whatsoever... then i dont see anything wrong with it.
 

crumpet19

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
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His faith is his own business. But, Privately owned establishments should be able to set their own rules. If it was a gov't owned building then I could see the guy getting upset and sueing. But, in a private establishments... if the customer doesn't like the policy, he or she can go somewhere else.
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
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Sounds like a stupid rule, but it's a private business, so they can enforce whatever rules they want within the law.
 

RedRooster

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
6,596
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That guy should stop whining. The rules are set across the board, no one is discriminating.
I agree with the other responses.

I hope he tries to bring forth a lawsuit, then he'll see how silly he is being when it gets thrown out.


edit--i can't spell.
 

PunDogg

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2002
4,529
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sounds like a stupid rule to me, but do u think he can sue them, its looks as if Sikh's have sued before and won, i will have to wait and see what happens, plus i have been to other clubs where their policy is no hats, but they have let in Sikh's with turbans, don't know if there are any Sikh's who post here?

Dogg
 

darktubbly

Senior member
Aug 19, 2002
595
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As far as I remember, the turban is based more on religion doctrine, not a fashion statement. It would be like someone being denied entry because they're brandishing a set of rosary beads. Regardless, it's a private business, so if the customer doesn't like it, they have the choice to go elsewhere. The manager sure could have handled it differently though as opposed to that "upscale image" comment.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
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If they are throwing out Hasids and Muslims for their respective headwear, than I see no problem. I think the owner of the business should be a bit more tolerant, but as a business owner, it's his right to do that, and as potential clients, it is our job to "vote with our feet."
 

PunDogg

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2002
4,529
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Originally posted by: RedRooster
That guy should stop whining. The rules are set across the board, no one is discriminating.
I agree with the other responses.

I hope he tries to bring forth a lawsuit, then he'll see how silly he is being when it gets thrown out.


edit--i can't spell.

Sikh's have sued before, and have won, so I am not sure if it will be thrown out, cuz its not a clothing or vanity thing where he can just take it off, his religion demands he keep it on

DOgg
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: fivespeed5
Originally posted by: CPA
Private business, so what's the problem?

so could a private business not serve, say, asian people because it's up to the discretion of the owner?

their is a big difference between headware and race.

but if you want to go that far, I would say yes, it is a PRIVATE business. Would the business man be smart to do that, No, would I do that, No, but it is a private business and the owner should be able to allow whatever customer they want in or don't want in. If you don't want Asians in your home, do you have to let them in anyway?
 

BruinEd03

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,399
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Originally posted by: Jzero
If they are throwing out Hasids and Muslims for their respective headwear, than I see no problem. I think the owner of the business should be a bit more tolerant, but as a business owner, it's his right to do that, and as potential clients, it is our job to "vote with our feet."

The biz owner actually doesn't have the right to discriminate based on religon. It's like the owner suddenly saying anyone who attends a religous worship on saturday instead of sunday isn't allowed in the club.

-Ed
 

DurocShark

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
15,708
5
56
Bleh.

I'm starting a religion where men wear baseball caps that say "I'm a Geek" and women were crotchless jeans. I'll register it and everything, then sue the first business that won't let us in.

:|

(Hmmm... The crotchless jeans idea was pretty good, eh? Bwahahahaha)
 

BruinEd03

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,399
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Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: fivespeed5
Originally posted by: CPA
Private business, so what's the problem?

so could a private business not serve, say, asian people because it's up to the discretion of the owner?

their is a big difference between headware and race.

but if you want to go that far, I would say yes, it is a PRIVATE business. Would the business man be smart to do that, No, would I do that, No, but it is a private business and the owner should be able to allow whatever customer they want in or don't want in. If you don't want Asians in your home, do you have to let them in anyway?

Do you not understand the headware is part of his religon? Just because Christians aren't big on it doesn't mean it isn't fundamental to their faith.

-Ed
 

Booster

Diamond Member
May 4, 2002
4,380
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his religion demands he keep it on

Nobody cares about my religion. Why should I give a crap about someone else's religion then? I say leave all hats at the door or go to McDonalds if you don't like it. These people somehow always just have to rub their religion in your face. There's nothing wrong with it, I agree. But I don't want them to bug me with it either.
 

BruinEd03

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,399
1
0
Originally posted by: Booster
his religion demands he keep it on

Nobody cares about my religion. Why should I give a crap about someone else's religion then? I say leave all hats at the door or go to McDonalds if you don't like it. These people somehow always just have to rub their religion in your face. There's nothing wrong with it, I agree. But I don't want them to bug me with it either.

lol you sound like the white folks in the south when blacks tried to move into the neighborhood.

-Ed
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
0
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so could a private business not serve, say, asian people because it's up to the discretion of the owner

If you cannot see the difference between race and a hat you are in huge trouble. Race cannot be removed but a hat shure as heck can.
Have you ever been to a upscale resturant that requires a tie and jacket? Dress codes are not against the law.

Bleep
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: BruinEd03
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: fivespeed5
Originally posted by: CPA
Private business, so what's the problem?

so could a private business not serve, say, asian people because it's up to the discretion of the owner?

their is a big difference between headware and race.

but if you want to go that far, I would say yes, it is a PRIVATE business. Would the business man be smart to do that, No, would I do that, No, but it is a private business and the owner should be able to allow whatever customer they want in or don't want in. If you don't want Asians in your home, do you have to let them in anyway?

Do you not understand the headware is part of his religon? Just because Christians aren't big on it doesn't mean it isn't fundamental to their faith.

-Ed


Yes I do, but what does that have to do with dolph's question?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: BruinEd03
Originally posted by: Booster
his religion demands he keep it on

Nobody cares about my religion. Why should I give a crap about someone else's religion then? I say leave all hats at the door or go to McDonalds if you don't like it. These people somehow always just have to rub their religion in your face. There's nothing wrong with it, I agree. But I don't want them to bug me with it either.

lol you sound like the white folks in the south when blacks tried to move into the neighborhood.

-Ed

You sound like a clueless asshat that doesn't know anything about history. The South is more integrated than the North or the West.
 

cjchaps

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2000
3,013
1
81
So my religous beliefs say my wife has to leave her boobs exposed to proclaim gods beauty. Do you think they will let us in at chuck E cheeses????

EDIT: Misspelled da boobies!
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: BruinEd03
Originally posted by: Booster
his religion demands he keep it on

Nobody cares about my religion. Why should I give a crap about someone else's religion then? I say leave all hats at the door or go to McDonalds if you don't like it. These people somehow always just have to rub their religion in your face. There's nothing wrong with it, I agree. But I don't want them to bug me with it either.

lol you sound like the white folks in the south when blacks tried to move into the neighborhood.

-Ed

This is your second post that is illogical.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: BruinEd03
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: dolph
Originally posted by: fivespeed5
Originally posted by: CPA
Private business, so what's the problem?

so could a private business not serve, say, asian people because it's up to the discretion of the owner?

their is a big difference between headware and race.

but if you want to go that far, I would say yes, it is a PRIVATE business. Would the business man be smart to do that, No, would I do that, No, but it is a private business and the owner should be able to allow whatever customer they want in or don't want in. If you don't want Asians in your home, do you have to let them in anyway?

Do you not understand the headware is part of his religon? Just because Christians aren't big on it doesn't mean it isn't fundamental to their faith.

-Ed

So fvcking what? Do you not understand that private businesses don't have to cater to that? Do you not understand that if the owner wanted to prevent people from carrying Bibles in he could? Be could prevent Orthodox Jews with heavy beards from coming in to. Your point is WHAT?