No grounding in house - safe for electronics?

[piasabird]

Might also help to have a surge suppressor. However that would also require a ground. Often in a furnace closet or around the refrigerator or washing machine access there may be a grounded plug. Some retail computers often skimp on power supply. They often use the cheapest weakest power supply that can make the computer work. Sub-standard power supplies are quite often the cause of computer failure. Some homes may not even have conduit. I lived in an older house that belonged to my grandmother and the house was powered by 2 30k service lines. The furnace and the washing machine/dryer were on a separate breaker box.

 

[Jman13]

If you have a room near a bathroom you may be able to ground an outlet to a metal pipe. This may not work on some houses if all the supply pipes have been replaced with the plastic type pipes. If the house is above ground you can use a grounding stake. You just put the stake in the ground under the house. It is a little easier than getting a new power panel box and rewiring the whole house. Radio shack use to sell those grounding rods. I would think a lowes or home depot may also sell them.

I think you have to take the outlet apart and replace it with a grounding outlet and connect the ground to that plug and route to the grounding rod or grounding pipe clamp for the ground, with heavy gauge copper wire.

You've got to make sure you're meeting code, though...you can't just install whatever you feel like to get a ground where you want it.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I've been living in an apartment for 1.5 years with no grounded outlets. Running several computers and and many electronic devices without issue--except for one time i was vacuuming and touched the vacuum to a computer chassis and it shut off.

I'm not wild about this situation, but the landlord has basically said he's not willing to invest in rewiring the building. Fortunately, we're planning to move soon...and finding a place with modern wiring is definitely a priority.

I think you'll be fine for a couple weeks.

so you dont worry about permanently damaging your electronics at all? I would be freaked out if that happened.

If you have a room near a bathroom you may be able to ground an outlet to a metal pipe. This may not work on some houses if all the supply pipes have been replaced with the plastic type pipes. If the house is above ground you can use a grounding stake. You just put the stake in the ground under the house. It is a little easier than getting a new power panel box and rewiring the whole house. Radio shack use to sell those grounding rods. I would think a lowes or home depot may also sell them.

I think you have to take the outlet apart and replace it with a grounding outlet and connect the ground to that plug and route to the grounding rod or grounding pipe clamp for the ground, with heavy gauge copper wire.

Well if its something that big, ill have him or some other professional do it. Im gonna try to talk to him today and see what he says. Im just going to ask if those two outlets have grounding. Its a yes or no answer right?

If he says no they dont need it because ________ should i explain further, or is he right? Is there a situation where grounding would not be necesary sur to whatever setup?

 

[Modelworks]

I'm assuming you mean there is no ground at the outlets, and no ground conductor in the circuits or grounding the boxes, right? The service entrance has to have something connected to ground for the neutral to sit at 0 volts and provide the 120V difference in the two wire circuit (unless it's providing two 60V opposite each other, which I've never seen).

Power is provided by a step down transformer that has 3 wires on the output, Two hot wires and the 3rd wire is the center tap on the transformer, there is no grounding involved to provide power. The ground is attached to the center tap so that the power on the street will be at the same potential as the power in the home , it has nothing to do with it working or not, it is purely for safety.

It is a simple single phase step down transformer supply.

 

[Modelworks]

so you dont worry about permanently damaging your electronics at all? I would be freaked out if that happened.



Well if its something that big, ill have him or some other professional do it. Im gonna try to talk to him today and see what he says. Im just going to ask if those two outlets have grounding. Its a yes or no answer right?

The proper way to upgrade an older home would be to have a ground wire or metal conduit going to each receptacle box. Inside the breaker box all of these grounds are brought to the grounding bar . From the grounding bar there should be 1 wire going to the grounding point for the entire home. This can be a ground rod or water pipe only if a ground rod is not doable, water pipes are last resort because of problems with ground contact and repairs causing further issues, it is better to use a ground rod dedicated to only the electrical system.

Some things to watch out for that are against code:
Installing 3 prong ground outlets without grounding them
Runs of multiple ground wires for outlets - homes are to only have 1 grounding point. Multiple grounds cause ground loops and are a shock hazard.
Grounding of outlets to neutral wire - shows as good on testers but is a bad idea, will appear to work as ground and is in fact how older appliances were grounded. The problem is if the neutral wire disconnects in any way you now have made everything grounded HOT.

If your pc , etc is not able to be plugged into a grounded outlet and the device has a 3 prong plug, you are better off NOT grounding it using a rigged up grounding wire . The ground on things like PC are there for the chance that something comes loose inside the case and shorts, it doesn't protect the pc from surges, fire or anything like that, it is merely a shock hazard prevention.

 

[Gibson486]

Can you explain further why grounding is unnecessary for the proper functioning and safety of electronic equipment incl computers? It pretty much common sense and something that built in to every technical note and requirement doc that I've seen for computer installation at work that I take it for granted.

Ground is for safety. You could take the third prong off and the unit will still work. It does it protect you in cases where potential voltage ends up where it should not (like a loose wire touching a metal case). That is why computers have them. They have a power supply in there and unlike a laptop, you really can't isolate it the 120V unless you purposely put the power supply outside the case.

Ground is also use to keep potential the same among everything. If you you do not ground everything to one source, you could end up with a house that has a neutral at -10V while another has it +10V. That is a 20V difference and it can cause issues.

Also, to who ever said it, their computer was fried not because of the grounding. Grounding does not protect against surges or shorts.

 

[DigitalWolf]

I honestly don't evny your friend .. unless he got some super duper deal. I worked for an Electricial contracter for years... but I've been out of the loop since 1995'ish...


Anyway...


In my personal computer experience the only real ground related problem I had was back in the 1980's with my C64. I was having errors on some of my 5.25 floppies and it turns out back then... magnetic media liked having a ground. In my case the house had 3 wire (edit: this is generally called 2 wire with ground.. if you ask for 3 wire you'll get just that.. plus a ground) but for some reason (probably cost) they had installed 2 prong outlets. Swapped outlet.. never had another problem.

I honestly can't say what problems you may have with "modern" computers and no ground.

I would definitely look into buying a cheapo outlet tester. You simply plug them in and 3 lights.. come on in various combinations to show you issues. Obviously no ground you know.. but you want to check polarity before you plug in. (I think I read your friend had replaced some of the outlets already with 3 prong.)

A computer will run fine on reverse polarity.. well at least it will work. My apartment complex in Oregon had reverse polarity... I had quite a few electronics die (but many others didn't) and I don't mean die right off... just seemed earlier than they should.

However, reverse polarity killed the batteries in my UPS pretty quick... this was around 2008 or so (I moved back to the east coast).


I could write you a wall of text about the situation your friend stepped into with the electrical alone. I just would say if he plans on doing it himself and is not an electrician... I wouldn't plan on having a grounded house to plug my stuff into... in a week or two.


If you live in a place which requires inspections on residential and he has no working knowledge of installation or NEC... there could be issues. Some states don't require inspections on single family residentials... some do. It can also vary by local municipality.. along with the fact even NEC is only a minimum requirement and there may be special requirements where you live.. that a non electrician may not be aware of. (they may require a permit be pulled as well.. and afaik only a master electrician can do that.. but usually you can pay one just for the permit part).


That's not even getting into the fun of fishing walls... etc


Oh and I personally wouldn't hook a ground to a copper water pipe. A conductive pipe that passes through walls .. having the possibility to go "hot" is not my idea of a good time.


If the house is old enough... it could even have aluminum wire inside.. and he'd definitely want that out asap.. especially if you live in an area with seasons. That's pretty much what lead to "inside" being done with copper wiring. Expansion/Contraction + Outside layer degrading + any nearby thing that can burn... = lots of house fires back in the day.

Even if its copper if the house is old.. it could be Nob and Tube (probably not spelled that way) but the cloth like outer layer on that... usually will fall apart in your hands.


If your friend has the tools and the experience.. its really not that big of a deal to rewire a house. If he doesn't have the tools or working experience... well.. heh... adventure awaits.

Sorry for the semi ramble.. just started having flashbacks of crawling under houses.. through piles of crap and bones.. and attics that looked worse than the under house crawl space.

*edits: edited a couple lines for clarity*

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I honestly don't evny your friend .. unless he got some super duper deal. I worked for an Electricial contracter for years... but I've been out of the loop since 1995'ish...


Anyway...


In my personal computer experience the only real ground related problem I had was back in the 1980's with my C64. I was having errors on some of my 5.25 floppies and it turns out back then... magnetic media liked having a ground. In my case the house had 3 wire (edit: this is generally called 2 wire with ground.. if you ask for 3 wire you'll get just that.. plus a ground) but for some reason (probably cost) they had installed 2 prong outlets. Swapped outlet.. never had another problem.

I honestly can't say what problems you may have with "modern" computers and no ground.

I would definitely look into buying a cheapo outlet tester. You simply plug them in and 3 lights.. come on in various combinations to show you issues. Obviously no ground you know.. but you want to check polarity before you plug in. (I think I read your friend had replaced some of the outlets already with 3 prong.)

A computer will run fine on reverse polarity.. well at least it will work. My apartment complex in Oregon had reverse polarity... I had quite a few electronics die (but many others didn't) and I don't mean die right off... just seemed earlier than they should.

However, reverse polarity killed the batteries in my UPS pretty quick... this was around 2008 or so (I moved back to the east coast).


I could write you a wall of text about the situation your friend stepped into with the electrical alone. I just would say if he plans on doing it himself and is not an electrician... I wouldn't plan on having a grounded house to plug my stuff into... in a week or two.


If you live in a place which requires inspections on residential and he has no working knowledge of installation or NEC... there could be issues. Some states don't require inspections on single family residentials... some do. It can also vary by local municipality.. along with the fact even NEC is only a minimum requirement and there may be special requirements where you live.. that a non electrician may not be aware of. (they may require a permit be pulled as well.. and afaik only a master electrician can do that.. but usually you can pay one just for the permit part).


That's not even getting into the fun of fishing walls... etc


Oh and I personally wouldn't hook a ground to a copper water pipe. A conductive pipe that passes through walls .. having the possibility to go "hot" is not my idea of a good time.


If the house is old enough... it could even have aluminum wire inside.. and he'd definitely want that out asap.. especially if you live in an area with seasons. That's pretty much what lead to "inside" being done with copper wiring. Expansion/Contraction + Outside layer degrading + any nearby thing that can burn... = lots of house fires back in the day.

Even if its copper if the house is old.. it could be Nob and Tube (probably not spelled that way) but the cloth like outer layer on that... usually will fall apart in your hands.


If your friend has the tools and the experience.. its really not that big of a deal to rewire a house. If he doesn't have the tools or working experience... well.. heh... adventure awaits.

Sorry for the semi ramble.. just started having flashbacks of crawling under houses.. through piles of crap and bones.. and attics that looked worse than the under house crawl space.

*edits: edited a couple lines for clarity*

thanks. My friend isnt doing the work, his dad is who is certified and all that. HEs just doing the work little by little because were not ready to move in yet. Im 100 percent sure he knows what hes doing, i just didnt know if i should specifcally ask him to put in ground when he gets to it, or if he just would do it anyway.

He did mention some stuff hes doing is to get it up to code for insurance purposes.

Ill report back what he says. Im probably just being overly cautious, but i guess its justified since its thousands of dollars worth of electronics.

 

[birthdaymonkey]

so you dont worry about permanently damaging your electronics at all? I would be freaked out if that happened.

I was worried at first. The weird vacuum shut off thing happened a few weeks after we moved in. But when it became clear that my choices were (A) don't use my computers, (B) move again, or (C) continue on as normal and hope for the best, I took the path of least resistance.

I seldom think about it now, but as I said, I want to make sure the next place I live has a modern electrical system.

 

[VirtualLarry]

At a friend's new apt, he finally had outlets with the third ground socket. However, his power strip he was using with his computer had one of the 3-to-2 pin outlet adaptors on it. He used that power strip, without removing the 3-to-2 adaptor, and when he touched the outside of his computer case, he got a shock.

I diagnosed it, and told him to remove the 3-to-2 adaptor, it was no longer necessary to plug in his computer. He did that, and no longer got shocked by his computer.

So I personally would not plug in computers into only a 2-prong outlet, using an adaptor.

 

[Jman13]

Power is provided by a step down transformer that has 3 wires on the output, Two hot wires and the 3rd wire is the center tap on the transformer, there is no grounding involved to provide power. The ground is attached to the center tap so that the power on the street will be at the same potential as the power in the home , it has nothing to do with it working or not, it is purely for safety.

It is a simple single phase step down transformer supply.

But the center tap of the transformer is grounded to provide a 0V reference, and this is where the neutral conductor is pulled from the utility transformer (120, 0, -120V -> L1, N, L2). That's all I was trying to say...that if he has 120V power, at the very least, SOMEWHERE there is something connected to ground...in this case, back at the utility transformer...though it's not acting as a grounding conductor, and I never said it was.

Section 250.24 of the NEC requires that the neutral be grounded at the transformer or elsewhere outdoors for an outdoor transformer supplying service to premises.
(specifically 250.24(A)(2) which states "Outdoor Transformer: Where the transformer supplying the service is located outside the building, at least one additional grounding connection shall be made from the grounded service conductor to a grounding electrode, either at the transformer or elsewhere outside the building.") The grounded service conductor is the neutral. (specified in section 250.26, which requires the neutral conductor to be grounded in a single phase 3-wire system). While I know his current premises wiring is not up to code, I would find it surprising that the utility side isn't following code.

My point was if there was no 0V reference, you could have 240V circuits that worked, but without a connection somewhere on the neutral to ground, you couldn't ensure 120V circuits would stay at 120V.

In one of my original posts, I did overly simplify what I was trying to say. Without the ground, the voltage of the neutral can fluctuate, and that can be not so good.

 

[vailr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvidiaguy07
If the plugs are in, and the only thing left is the actual service itself - could it be that they have ground right now?

If the old outlets have metal enclosures connected with shielded metal conduit, then the metal conduit would normally be adequate for providing a dedicated ground wire.

Not if the conduits aren't grounded...which if there's no grounding on the service entrance, is unlikely.

Using existing metal conduit as a ground source would greatly simplify the house wiring upgrade process, no?

 

[Jman13]

Quote:
Using existing metal conduit as a ground source would greatly simplify the house wiring upgrade process, no?

It could, but you would need to verify that it was continuous, of course. If there were breaks, you'd need to know where so you could do a jumper between them. Thing is, most residential wiring isn't in conduit, it's just in the walls, run through holes in the studs, so it isn't too likely to be a reasonable solution in this case, but it's possible, and allowed by code. It would definitely be the easiest way to do this if all the circuits are in conduit...just make sure they're all connected and connect the conduit to the new grounding system that will be installed and you're set.

When I originally replied to your first suggestion, I was referring to the fact that they couldn't currently be used as a ground source (since it was said there wasn't a ground system installed at the moment), not that they wouldn't be a good choice for upgrading, if conduit is present. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[vailr]

Thing is, most residential wiring isn't in conduit, it's just in the walls, run through holes in the studs

Would depend on the year the house in question was built. I know that a former house that I grew up in (built circa 1950 in Indiana), used flexible metal conduit connected to metal outlet boxes, with non-grounded wall outlets. A fuse box was at the electrical service entry point. After about 30 years, the fuse box was upgraded to a breaker box, in the midst of a whole house air conditioner add-on upgrade.

 

[Jman13]

Flexible metal conduit has certain restrictions when used as a grounding conductor, so even that would have to be looked at. Rigid, intermediate or EMT conduit is fine for use as a grounding conductor, though.

 

[piasabird]

The other day, a couple years ago, Lightning struck the transformer and took out my little switch or whatever. Somehow it did not bother the computer. Probably because the transformer was grounded. Probably was just a surge through the phone line or the cable or whatever. There are good reasons to have grounded circuits.

Whatever can go wrong will!

 

[bononos]

Ground is for safety. You could take the third prong off and the unit will still work. It does it protect you in cases where potential voltage ends up where it should not (like a loose wire touching a metal case). That is why computers have them. They have a power supply in there and unlike a laptop, you really can't isolate it the 120V unless you purposely put the power supply outside the case.

Ground is also use to keep potential the same among everything. If you you do not ground everything to one source, you could end up with a house that has a neutral at -10V while another has it +10V. That is a 20V difference and it can cause issues.

Also, to who ever said it, their computer was fried not because of the grounding. Grounding does not protect against surges or shorts.

Agreed that computers would still work. But they would be unsafe for the equipment.
Grounding does protect it against surges (if not shorts). Grounding might not work against a bullseye whack from lightning for a homeowner but lightning produces induced surges up to miles away and the combination of proper grounding and surge suppressors is enough to keep that problem at bay.

 

[Gibson486]

Agreed that computers would still work. But they would be unsafe for the equipment.
Grounding does protect it against surges (if not shorts). Grounding might not work against a bullseye whack from lightning for a homeowner but lightning produces induced surges up to miles away and the combination of proper grounding and surge suppressors is enough to keep that problem at bay.

Well, the equipment is protected regardless of the ground or not. As you eluded to, it is the surge suppression circuits that handle the surges. The ground does not magically make is safe against surges...

 

[bononos]

Well, the equipment is protected regardless of the ground or not. As you eluded to, it is the surge suppression circuits that handle the surges. The ground does not magically make is safe against surges...

I did not explicitly mention but meant that surge protection equipment works in tandem with grounding to shunt surges toward the path of least resistance - ground.

Why am I the only person to disagree with you? Am I too ignorant, too trite or prosaic? Have I missed something really big here.

 

[ussfletcher]

Afaik the rounded ground pin in the 3 prong setup is used as the case ground and maybe as a referene ground, but it is mainly so that a user doesn't get electrocuted. What is much more likely with the blowing up computers is that the old outlets were wired incorrectly. You should be perfectly fine plugging into an older 2 prong outlet assuming it was properly wired.

 

[Meghan54]

The house we moved into a couple of months ago was built in 1963 and has fuse box and two-slot outlets, not a breaker and grounded outlets. We had to have the place reinspected for ins., and while the ins. inspector did suggest the fuse box be upgraded to a breaker box (an electrician quoted $1800 for that job), he did not make it a requirement for the ins. as the house was built to code when it was put up.



Now, if the electrician did the breaker box job, we'd open ourselves up to having to replace/rewire the entire house...it'd fail inspection as grounded outlets are current code and we'd have to meet that. So, we've left everything alone, for now.




And having problems with computers plugged into them? Nope. I have 3 desktops continually plugged in, two laptops that are sometimes plugged in, three TVs with their associated cable/DVD players (a 19" CRT, a 32" LCD and a 46" LCD), the HT system with an amp/preamp/speakers in the living room. And with all that, no problems with any electrical issues at all. Or course, I do have all the desktops running off UPS's. Did have to put 3-to-2 prong adapters in the socket the UPS comes from, but once each adapter was set up properly, the USP's have had no problems and neither have any of the computers.


BTW....the three desktops include an i5-750 at stock with a 6770 gpu, a Corsair HX620 ps and a 26" TN panel LCD; one with a mildly OC'd i5-2500k with a 6950 gpu, a Corsair HX650 ps and a 19" TN LCD; and one with an aggressively OC'd i7-2600k @ 4.6GHz, 16GB RAM, 7970 OC'd gpu, SSD and two mech. hd's, a Corsair HX850 ps, water cooling and a 24" IPS LCD....none having problems running on the old wiring.

 

[Modelworks]

The house we moved into a couple of months ago was built in 1963 and has fuse box and two-slot outlets, not a breaker and grounded outlets. We had to have the place reinspected for ins., and while the ins. inspector did suggest the fuse box be upgraded to a breaker box (an electrician quoted $1800 for that job), he did not make it a requirement for the ins. as the house was built to code when it was put up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with fuse boxes. They are actually safer than breaker boxes . The reason for the change was because people tended to tamper with fuses , using pennies and dimes , and the fuses had to be replaced vs just flipping a switch. Fuses are more reliable and predictable in a short or surge than breakers which the more they trip the less reliable they become.