Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?
This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.
Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.
Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society. That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).
I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?
Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.
edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.
I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.
Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.
One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.
Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100
He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"
Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.
Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.
Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.
Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.
Joe: How much for that Testing?
Dr: $7000
Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?
Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.
Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.
Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.