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No Breaks for "Mr. Danger": Chavez wins re-election by LANDSLIDE

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,876
826
126
man you guys are like little kindergarteners...7 pages of flames...nice to know we can all have a reasonable debate without throwing emotional rhetoric in.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.
Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society. That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
Okay you fail basic economics and political philosophy but get an A+ on bullsh!t rhetoric. Thanks for playing though.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,576
431
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
I'm actually embarassed for you for making such an incredibly stupid post.

I'm going to ignore completely blatant play to stupid people's emotions that "Joe is a good father and husband, but just can't get ahead" is and just ask, are you saying that in a perfect capitalistic society, doctors conspire to keep the price of treatments sky-high so the majority of their customers die?

Are you saying that socialism is needed to keep those greedy doctors from pumping up prices to more than what the market will bear for them? Is that a part of a perfect capitalistic society?

Do you understand how market forces self-regulate AT ALL?

PLEASE tell me you were joking with that post.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
Okay you fail basic economics and political philosophy but get an A+ on bullsh!t rhetoric. Thanks for playing though.
My BS = you BS cancelling each other out.

:p :D
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
Okay you fail basic economics and political philosophy but get an A+ on bullsh!t rhetoric. Thanks for playing though.
My BS = you BS cancelling each other out.

:p :D
No, you continue to ignore my arguments with distractions and rhetoric. There is no right to live off the labor of other people without their consent, and it is the height of selfishness and the antithesis of freedom to think that any such right exists.

How about the story of Jack? Jack has perfect health his whole life, never has a family, grows up poor but works his ass off to help society and make something better of himself, but never gets out of poverty because rich bleeding hearts (who because of many loopholes don't pay taxes themselves except through the appearance of supposedly high tax brackets) force him to pay all his income for other poor folks who refuse to better themselves. The rich drink their wine and pat themselves on the back for solving that poor problem once and for all by having the industrious poor pay for the lazy poor. That way they eliminate the threat of the industrious poor overthrowing them and the lazy poor staging a revolution all with one stone.

Regardless, none of this has anything to do with Chavez.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: daniel49

how about an entire Island of evidence. As he seeks to walk in the shadow of his mentor.
Sorry, you failed to prove your claim that he has some evil ulterior agenda at the expense of the poor. Try again, or you lose.

The fact that he is allied with Castro, who has also resisted domination by the US, does not prove your claim.

The poor in Cuba have been hurt terribly by US sanctions apart from Castro's poor economics.

On a side note, where's your consistency and call for the same total sanctions against China?
having ears they hear not having eyes they see not...

domination my arse...they would be no more dominated then the bahamas. don't blame 70 years of castro stealing cuba blind on the US.
As for Chavez if it walks like a Duck and Quacks like a duck...I say get the orange sauce out.
China is to far OT to get into here.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: sandorski
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
I'm actually embarassed for you for making such an incredibly stupid post.

I'm going to ignore completely blatant play to emotions that "Joe is a good father and husband, but just can't get ahead" and just ask, are you saying that in a perfect capitalistic society, doctors conspire to keep the price of treatments sky-high so the majority of their customers die?

Are you saying that socialism is needed to keep those greedy doctors from pumping up prices to more than what the market will bear for them? Is that a part of a perfect capitalistic society?

PLEASE tell me you were joking with that post.
No, I don't think Doctors are conspiring. Medicical Treatments are Expensive though and not everybody can afford them.

Was my post an appeal to Emotion. Certainly, as was Vic's.

The fact of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom. It is Freedom only to the extent that one has benefitted. The more Benefit, the more Freedom one has.

In both Free Market Capitalism and Socialism compromises on Freedom occur. In Vic's aruement, Wealth Accumulation has been compromised in Socialism for the Benefit of the many. In my arguement, the Poor's ability to benefit from all that Technology has been provided has been compromised for the benefit of the Individual's potential to accumulate Wealth. True Freedom comes from making the choice as to what kind of Society is created including the choice of Economic System.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some people have a skewed view of Freedom. Capitalism/Free Markets are not Freedom, Socialism is not Freedom. What is Freedom is the ability to choose either of those 2, any variation of those 2, or any other Economic system. As long as the People of any Nation is Free to choose their Leaders, they are Free to choose their fate. Democracy and only Democracy is the only Institution that ensures Freedom.
What about the person who votes for the losing candidate? What about his freedom to choose? Or did you vote for GW?

This is why free markets are freedom and socialism is not. Free markets do not require that people be involved when they do not wish to, while socialism requires that everyone be involved whether they like it or not.
He/She certainly Lost, but he/she still had the choice. Perhaps next Election they will Win.

Both Systems(Free Market/Socialism) requires everyone to be involved, like it or not.

Exactly what involvement does a truly free market require, like it or not? If you don't want to benefit society, then you just won't receive any benefit from society.
That is all. Unlike socialism, free markets don't require you to work solely for the benefit of others (which is the antithesis of freedom, slavery, by definition).

I'm sorry to say, but you don't know what freedom is. Democracy can just as easily be a tyranny as any other system. Just like an absolutely monarchy could foster freedom if the king is kindly and wise. Democracy defines a way in which government decisions are made, not necessarily any particular system of government, free or not-free, of itself.
Socialism works on the same principle. I know what Freedom is. Freedom is to choose, part of that Choice is how Society is structured. If Capitalism/Free Markets are the only choice, there is no Freedom.
WTF how do you people get so brainwashed?

Okay, suppose you live in a socialist society and it is voted upon -- democratically, of course -- that everyone has the right to "free" ice cream. You, it just so happens, are lactose-intolerant, and so you don't want the free ice cream. Now, because nothing, not even ice cream, can possibly be truly free, the cost of the "free" ice cream for everyone is still collected as taxation. Are you of lactose-intolerance allowed to choose not to have to pay for everyone else's ice cream? No. Under any possible socialist system that could be conceived of, you would have pay (which means, "work for," as money = labor/time) for everyone else's benefit with no benefit to yourself, nor choice allowed. There is no freedom, except for the freedom to vote for new and interesting ways of screwing your neighbor, and to vote in vain attempts to try to stop your neighbor from doing the same to you.


edit: BTW, you didn't answer my question to your statement that free markets are restrictive of freedom, you just distracted from it.
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
Okay you fail basic economics and political philosophy but get an A+ on bullsh!t rhetoric. Thanks for playing though.
My BS = you BS cancelling each other out.

:p :D
No, you continue to ignore my arguments with distractions and rhetoric. There is no right to live off the labor of other people without their consent, and it is the height of selfishness and the antithesis of freedom to think that any such right exists.

How about the story of Jack? Jack has perfect health his whole life, never has a family, grows up poor but works his ass off to help society and make something better of himself, but never gets out of poverty because rich bleeding hearts (who because of many loopholes don't pay taxes themselves except through the appearance of supposedly high tax brackets) force him to pay all his income for other poor folks who refuse to better themselves. The rich drink their wine and pat themselves on the back for solving that poor problem once and for all by having the industrious poor pay for the lazy poor. That way they eliminate the threat of the industrious poor overthrowing them and the lazy poor staging a revolution all with one stone.

Regardless, none of this has anything to do with Chavez.
Rights are granted by Government through the Will of the People. There is no Natural Right for a few to control a Natural Wealth. That Right, where it exists, only exists because the People Freely chose to grant it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Rights are granted by Government through the Will of the People. There is no Natural Right for a few to control a Natural Wealth. That Right, where it exists, only exists because the People Freely chose to grant it.
WRONG. Rights are not granted by government. Rights are inherent, and people grant government powers. You are correct that there is no natural right of a few to control all the wealth, but that's just another talking point.

Get off your rhetoric. Yours (rot's, McOwen's, etc.) has nothing to do with rich and poor and we all know that. You only fool yourself. You're all just partisan hacks. If Bill Gates sang your political tune, but never gave a dime of charity, you'd love him. He doesn't sing your tune, gives billions, and you hate him.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Rights are granted by Government through the Will of the People. There is no Natural Right for a few to control a Natural Wealth. That Right, where it exists, only exists because the People Freely chose to grant it.
WRONG. Rights are not granted by government. Rights are inherent, and people grant government powers. You are correct that there is no natural right of a few to control all the wealth, but that's just another talking point.

Get off your rhetoric. Yours (rot's, McOwen's, etc.) has nothing to do with rich and poor and we all know that. You only fool yourself. You're all just partisan hacks. If Bill Gates sang your political tune, but never gave a dime of charity, you'd love him. He doesn't sing your tune, gives billions, and you hate him.
Sigh.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: sandorski
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
I'm actually embarassed for you for making such an incredibly stupid post.

I'm going to ignore completely blatant play to emotions that "Joe is a good father and husband, but just can't get ahead" and just ask, are you saying that in a perfect capitalistic society, doctors conspire to keep the price of treatments sky-high so the majority of their customers die?

Are you saying that socialism is needed to keep those greedy doctors from pumping up prices to more than what the market will bear for them? Is that a part of a perfect capitalistic society?

PLEASE tell me you were joking with that post.
No, I don't think Doctors are conspiring. Medicical Treatments are Expensive though and not everybody can afford them.

Was my post an appeal to Emotion. Certainly, as was Vic's.

The fact of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom. It is Freedom only to the extent that one has benefitted. The more Benefit, the more Freedom one has.

In both Free Market Capitalism and Socialism compromises on Freedom occur. In Vic's aruement, Wealth Accumulation has been compromised in Socialism for the Benefit of the many. In my arguement, the Poor's ability to benefit from all that Technology has been provided has been compromised for the benefit of the Individual's potential to accumulate Wealth. True Freedom comes from making the choice as to what kind of Society is created including the choice of Economic System.
No, my argument was not based on emotion. You made the ridiculous assertion that freedom is defined solely by the presence of democracy. By your logic, if whites as the majority were to vote to enslave the blacks the minority, the blacks simply "lose", but hey, "perhaps next election they will win." (quotes are your own words). Hey, the majority speaks, freedom wins. This is freedom by democracy according to your own logic as you have presented it in this thread. I am countering you because you are obviously an idiot, and not because I disapprove of any of the righteous causes by which you delude yourself of your idiocy.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,245
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Rights are granted by Government through the Will of the People. There is no Natural Right for a few to control a Natural Wealth. That Right, where it exists, only exists because the People Freely chose to grant it.
WRONG. Rights are not granted by government. Rights are inherent, and people grant government powers. You are correct that there is no natural right of a few to control all the wealth, but that's just another talking point.

Get off your rhetoric. Yours (rot's, McOwen's, etc.) has nothing to do with rich and poor and we all know that. You only fool yourself. You're all just partisan hacks. If Bill Gates sang your political tune, but never gave a dime of charity, you'd love him. He doesn't sing your tune, gives billions, and you hate him.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Let's refresh ourselves by reading where this concept of natural rights comes from:
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: daniel49

having ears they hear not having eyes they see not...
How ironic, you are projecting.

domination my arse...they would be no more dominated then the bahamas. don't blame 70 years of castro stealing cuba blind on the US.
As for Chavez if it walks like a Duck and Quacks like a duck...I say get the orange sauce out.
China is to far OT to get into here.
You obviously need a history lesson desperately in the history of domination of other nations.

70 years of Castro stealing Cuba blind? You are more ignorant that I thought to get such a basic fast wrong; he took power in 1959 IIRC, 47 years ago.

As for his stealing, you really know nothing of Catro, do you? For all his problems, he's hardly living like the many billions-stealing thugs we've supported from Marcos to the Shah to Saddam, who amassed such wealth while our ally, building palaces, until he became our target.

You are clearly a far-gone radical ideologue, for whom rationality is out of the question, as you spew nonsense free of facts for forming your views about quacking ducks.

You are expressing utterly vapid, child-like views by assuming everything about people like Chavez having the same agenda as Castro, as you make baseless accusations.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,576
431
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
No, I don't think Doctors are conspiring. Medicical Treatments are Expensive though and not everybody can afford them.

Was my post an appeal to Emotion. Certainly, as was Vic's.

The fact of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom. It is Freedom only to the extent that one has benefitted. The more Benefit, the more Freedom one has.

In both Free Market Capitalism and Socialism compromises on Freedom occur. In Vic's aruement, Wealth Accumulation has been compromised in Socialism for the Benefit of the many. In my arguement, the Poor's ability to benefit from all that Technology has been provided has been compromised for the benefit of the Individual's potential to accumulate Wealth. True Freedom comes from making the choice as to what kind of Society is created including the choice of Economic System.
What are you going on about? You started with:
Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society.
We're not talking about today, we're talking about the perfect free market. In the perfect free market, the offered price for services like cancer diagnosis and treatment are as low as the market can possibly bear. They have to be - that's the definition of the perfect free market. The inherent competition between those offering service very naturally leads to this.

I don't know about this "Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom" fluff, but I can say with certainty that socialism is absolutely not a winning "compromise" to make with capitalism. If socialism is required to drop the price of an offered good or service below what the market has naturally determined it to be, then someone is being ripped off. Being forced to work for less than what you're service is entitled to is, yes I went there, slavery.

I don't care that much about Venezuela making an obviously poor choice because it'll make an interesting footnote in history a few decades hence, but it's idiocy to imply that freedom includes the right to enslave absolutely all of the population to the Castro's second coming because he's promising you personally a cut of the oil revenue.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Rights are granted by Government through the Will of the People. There is no Natural Right for a few to control a Natural Wealth. That Right, where it exists, only exists because the People Freely chose to grant it.
WRONG. Rights are not granted by government. Rights are inherent, and people grant government powers. You are correct that there is no natural right of a few to control all the wealth, but that's just another talking point.

Get off your rhetoric. Yours (rot's, McOwen's, etc.) has nothing to do with rich and poor and we all know that. You only fool yourself. You're all just partisan hacks. If Bill Gates sang your political tune, but never gave a dime of charity, you'd love him. He doesn't sing your tune, gives billions, and you hate him.
Sigh.
Sigh what? Let's refresh ourselves by reading where this concept of natural rights comes from:
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Doesn't matter what the US Constitution says, "Rights" exist because the People(or whoever has the Power) choose for them to exist.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: sandorski
No, I don't think Doctors are conspiring. Medicical Treatments are Expensive though and not everybody can afford them.

Was my post an appeal to Emotion. Certainly, as was Vic's.

The fact of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom. It is Freedom only to the extent that one has benefitted. The more Benefit, the more Freedom one has.

In both Free Market Capitalism and Socialism compromises on Freedom occur. In Vic's aruement, Wealth Accumulation has been compromised in Socialism for the Benefit of the many. In my arguement, the Poor's ability to benefit from all that Technology has been provided has been compromised for the benefit of the Individual's potential to accumulate Wealth. True Freedom comes from making the choice as to what kind of Society is created including the choice of Economic System.
What are you going on about? You started with:
Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society.
We're not talking about today, we're talking about the perfect free market. In the perfect free market, the offered price for services like cancer diagnosis and treatment are as low as the market can possibly bear. They have to be - that's the definition of the perfect free market. The inherent competition between those offering service very naturally leads to this.

I don't know about this "Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom" fluff, but I can say with certainty that socialism is absolutely not a winning "compromise" to make with capitalism. If socialism is required to drop the price of an offered good or service below what the market has naturally determined it to be, then someone is being ripped off. Being forced to work for less than what you're service is entitled to is, yes I went there, slavery.

I don't care that much about Venezuela making an obviously poor choice because it'll make an interesting footnote in history a few decades hence, but it's idiocy to imply that freedom includes the right to enslave absolutely all of the population to the Castro's second coming because he's promising you personally a cut of the oil revenue.
It may be true that the Best Price Possible is a benefit of the Free Market, but it does not mean that it is Affordable to All.

I'm no fan of Socialism or Free Market Capitalism(I'm talking the Pure form of each, of which only Pure Socialism has ever been tried), but when it comes to Wages and Workers getting what they are Worth, that was only acheived in Industrialized Free Market Economies when the Socialist concept of Worker Unions forced it. Both Economic systems offer valueable ideas that make the best current Economic Systems possible, that being Mixed Economic Systems.

My point is and always has been is that: It's the choice of the Venezuelan People to decide. It is not My choice, it is not Vic's choice, nor is it You choice. They are Free to choose for themselves, we have no Right or Freedom to choose for Them. If they want a Cut of the Oil Revenues, then that's their choice and don't go and make it out like they are the only one's who have ever Voted for someone because of what they can get from them. We do it every Election, the only difference is what we are willing to be bought for.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: daniel49

having ears they hear not having eyes they see not...
How ironic, you are projecting.

domination my arse...they would be no more dominated then the bahamas. don't blame 70 years of castro stealing cuba blind on the US.
As for Chavez if it walks like a Duck and Quacks like a duck...I say get the orange sauce out.
China is to far OT to get into here.
You obviously need a history lesson desperately in the history of domination of other nations.

70 years of Castro stealing Cuba blind? You are more ignorant that I thought to get such a basic fast wrong; he took power in 1959 IIRC, 47 years ago.

As for his stealing, you really know nothing of Catro, do you? For all his problems, he's hardly living like the many billions-stealing thugs we've supported from Marcos to the Shah to Saddam, who amassed such wealth while our ally, building palaces, until he became our target.

You are clearly a far-gone radical ideologue, for whom rationality is out of the question, as you spew nonsense free of facts for forming your views about quacking ducks.

You are expressing utterly vapid, child-like views by assuming everything about people like Chavez having the same agenda as Castro, as you make baseless accusations.
right i'll go read some noam chomsky so I Can better understand the benefits of socialism again:disgust:

ok so i exxagerated with 70 so sue me. And you cannot even hear chavez own words how much he admires a 2 bit dictator like castro, get your head out of the sand.
castro makes forbes list all the time. http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/2006...-kings-dictators_cz_lk_0504royals.html
Your views would fly better in France, You ought to consider moving there. I would even help you pack so you can find like minded people.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,386
3,516
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: sandorski
Ridiculous example.

I shouldn't have to even answer that question, you should know of plenty examples yourself. Unfortunetly you are quick to label another as "Brainwashed" when it is you who has bought the rhetorical kool aid.

Anyway, here's your answer: Joe lives in the perfect Free Market/Capitalist Society. He works hard, is a good Father and Husband, but has always been unable to make more $$ than to Supply his family with Its' basic needs, Food, Shelter, Clothing, and a few extras like a TV, occassional trip to Grandmas, etc.

One day Joe gets sick. No poblem, he thinks, he's been sick before a few days of fluids/rest will clear it up. A few days pass and hhe's even more sicker. So he calls a Doctor, makes an appointment, and goes to the Dr.s office.

Receptionist: That'll be $100 to see the Doctor
Joe having taken some money from the Vacation fund hands her the $100

He sees the Doctor, who does much of the usual things, but the Doctor soon concludes, "I'm not sure what's going on here. I need to run more Tests"

Joe: Are they expensive?
Dr: Some are, but we could run a few cheaper tests that'll only be $100?
Joe: Ok, but will they be conclusive?
Dr: Depends, for some things yes, but other more serious things they can't pinpoint, only narrow it down.

Joe decides to do the Tests, Doctor tells him he'll call in a week with the Results.

Week passes: Phone rings, Joe answers, it's the Doctor.

Doctor: Joe, I have some bad news. You have Cancer. Without further testing I can't determine where the Cancer is though.

Joe: How much for that Testing?

Dr: $7000

Joe: ?? I don't have that kind of $$. How much does Treatment cost? We can Treat it without knowing the details can't we?

Dr: To effectively treat it we need to know where it is, the price range of Treatments goes from $15000 on the low end to $250,000 on the High end. Without Treatment you'll have maybe 6 months to live.

Joe hangs up phone wondering what to tell his wife.

Even Free Market Capitalism has Losers and limits to Freedom.
I'm actually embarassed for you for making such an incredibly stupid post.

I'm going to ignore completely blatant play to emotions that "Joe is a good father and husband, but just can't get ahead" and just ask, are you saying that in a perfect capitalistic society, doctors conspire to keep the price of treatments sky-high so the majority of their customers die?

Are you saying that socialism is needed to keep those greedy doctors from pumping up prices to more than what the market will bear for them? Is that a part of a perfect capitalistic society?

PLEASE tell me you were joking with that post.
No, I don't think Doctors are conspiring. Medicical Treatments are Expensive though and not everybody can afford them.

Was my post an appeal to Emotion. Certainly, as was Vic's.

The fact of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism is not the same as Freedom. It is Freedom only to the extent that one has benefitted. The more Benefit, the more Freedom one has.

In both Free Market Capitalism and Socialism compromises on Freedom occur. In Vic's aruement, Wealth Accumulation has been compromised in Socialism for the Benefit of the many. In my arguement, the Poor's ability to benefit from all that Technology has been provided has been compromised for the benefit of the Individual's potential to accumulate Wealth. True Freedom comes from making the choice as to what kind of Society is created including the choice of Economic System.
No, my argument was not based on emotion. You made the ridiculous assertion that freedom is defined solely by the presence of democracy. By your logic, if whites as the majority were to vote to enslave the blacks the minority, the blacks simply "lose", but hey, "perhaps next election they will win." (quotes are your own words). Hey, the majority speaks, freedom wins. This is freedom by democracy according to your own logic as you have presented it in this thread. I am countering you because you are obviously an idiot, and not because I disapprove of any of the righteous causes by which you delude yourself of your idiocy.
Your Appeal to Emotion is clear.

Voting in a Referendum is an Entirely different subject than Voting on an Economic System by Electing Leaders. Let's put things into perspective here: Has Chavez made it Illegal for the Wealthy to exist? Has he confiscated the Wealth they have acquired?

No, for both questions. Perhaps one might argue that he has taken away the Wealthy's(more accurately, some of the) main source of Income, specifically those in the Oil Industry, but those people only had Oil as a source of Income because the powers that be originally granted that to them. The same principle is true for any Nation, including the US, Natural Resources are granted based upon a set criteria. If the Government chooses to reverse that decision they can do that as well. Different Nations have different ways of doing that, but doing that is well within their Power and Right.

Thanks, takes one to know one they say.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
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I can't believe some of the people in this thread.

MARXISM DOESNT WORK PEOPLE, The Soviet Union was the great Marxist experiment and IT FAILED.

 

ASK THE COMMUNITY