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No Breaks for "Mr. Danger": Chavez wins re-election by LANDSLIDE

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,050
6
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
There are a lot of priviliged creeps in Venezuela who hate Chavez for blind ideological reasons, the way many on the right hate Jane Fonda far beyond her actions.

Venezuela has a terrible problem with an elite wealthy class who screw the rest of the nation; they own 90% of the media as well, and use it for anti-Chave propaganda.

I saw a story from one of the international election observers who talked about a light-skinned blonde Veneuelan woman who met him at the airport and made hysterical claims about things Chave was going to do, saying she was afraid the airport would be shot up as well - these people have worked themselves into a frenzy and are doing all kinds of terrible things to try to overthrow Chavez, from the crippling strike, to the coup, to the snipers shooting innocent protestors and faking the news reports to make it look like Chavez supporters shootig into a crowd, to the above-mentioned constant propaganda, to the recall eletion (using the recall provision that Chavez himself put in to enhance democracy).

There can be criticisms of Chavez, I'm concerned about his wanting make the presidential term longer, but these people are effectively selfish, hystierical, dishonest traitors who seem to be in virtually civil war against the elected government, wanting to protect their absurd share of the wealth.

Big surprise that some Venezuelans people meet don't like Chavez; the ones who can travel more tend to be wealthier.


Exactly.

And Vic, back your garbage up or quit labeling other CTs, it is your version of the events that have been shown with film evidence to be BS.




Venezuela coup linked to Bush team


Specialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez

Observer Worldview

Ed Vulliamy in New York
Sunday April 21, 2002
The Observer

The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time.

Washington's involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere.

It also also deepens doubts about policy in the region being made by appointees to the Bush administration, all of whom owe their careers to serving in the dirty wars under President Reagan.

Article continues
One of them, Elliot Abrams, who gave a nod to the attempted Venezuelan coup, has a conviction for misleading Congress over the infamous Iran-Contra affair.

The Bush administration has tried to distance itself from the coup. It immediately endorsed the new government under businessman Pedro Carmona. But the coup was sent dramatically into reverse after 48 hours.

Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success.

The visits by Venezuelans plotting a coup, including Carmona himself, began, say sources, 'several months ago', and continued until weeks before the putsch last weekend. The visitors were received at the White House by the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich.

Reich is a right-wing Cuban-American who, under Reagan, ran the Office for Public Diplomacy. It reported in theory to the State Department, but Reich was shown by congressional investigations to report directly to Reagan's National Security Aide, Colonel Oliver North, in the White House.

North was convicted and shamed for his role in Iran-Contra, whereby arms bought by busting US sanctions on Iran were sold to the Contra guerrillas and death squads, in revolt against the Marxist government in Nicaragua.

Reich also has close ties to Venezuela, having been made ambassador to Caracas in 1986. His appointment was contested both by Democrats in Washington and political leaders in the Latin American country. The objections were overridden as Venezuela sought access to the US oil market.

Reich is said by OAS sources to have had 'a number of meetings with Carmona and other leaders of the coup' over several months. The coup was discussed in some detail, right down to its timing and chances of success, which were deemed to be excellent.

On the day Carmona claimed power, Reich summoned ambassadors from Latin America and the Caribbean to his office. He said the removal of Chavez was not a rupture of democra tic rule, as he had resigned and was 'responsible for his fate'. He said the US would support the Carmona government.

But the crucial figure around the coup was Abrams, who operates in the White House as senior director of the National Security Council for 'democracy, human rights and international opera tions'. He was a leading theoretician of the school known as 'Hemispherism', which put a priority on combating Marxism in the Americas.

It led to the coup in Chile in 1973, and the sponsorship of regimes and death squads that followed it in Argentina, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and elsewhere. During the Contras' rampage in Nicaragua, he worked directly to North.

Congressional investigations found Abrams had harvested illegal funding for the rebellion. Convicted for withholding information from the inquiry, he was pardoned by George Bush senior.

A third member of the Latin American triangle in US policy-making is John Negroponte, now ambassador to the United Nations. He was Reagan's ambassador to Honduras from 1981 to 1985 when a US-trained death squad, Battalion 3-16, tortured and murdered scores of activists. A diplomatic source said Negroponte had been 'informed that there might be some movement in Venezuela on Chavez' at the beginning of the year.

More than 100 people died in events before and after the coup. In Caracas on Friday a military judge confined five high-ranking officers to indefinite house arrest pending formal charges of rebellion.

Chavez's chief ideologue - Guillermo Garcia Ponce, director of the Revolutionary Political Command - said dissident generals, local media and anti-Chavez groups in the US had plotted the president's removal.

'The most reactionary sectors in the United States were also implicated in the conspiracy,' he said.

Link

You would either have to be totally ignorant of the way we handle things in South America and our history or being dishonest, but this is nothing new for you.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
That was a great documentary.

Amamos a Sr. Chavez. Nosotros, la gente.

Estoy alegre tú tengo gusto de él.

Chavez es un hombre valiente haberse pegado con lo que él hizo y contra los muchos enemigos. Desea la libertad viva.

Éstas son pistas que tengo gusto de pasar encendido

excusar mi español te agradecen
For those of us that do speak and read Spanish, would you mind giving us an English translation? The Spanish you used makes zero sense. I'm assuming you used a translator, because you ignored basic grammar rules, and tried to use the English way of speaking and structuring your sentences.
:p I agree.

Basically he says (although you probably already know):

I am happy you like him.

Chavez is a brave man to have done what he has done against many enemies. May liberty live.

Crappy Spanish.

Pardon my crappy Spanish, thanks.


edit: and yeah, the wife of a colleague of mine is a native Venezuelan (and she ain't white). She hates Chavez with a passion that actually shocked me, veteran of many the heated discussion.
One of my GF's co-workers is a native Panamanian and black as any African, and she hates Chavez as well. So yeah, rot's usual generalizations fall short.
My GF's exact words:

This guy is an asshole (talking about Steeplerot). He doesn't know what he's talking about, and his Spanish doesn't make any sense. I had called her in the living room to come take a look at another Chavez fan. She then said: His Spanish is bullsh!t. It should be "Por favor excusen mi español les agradezco."

She was reallly pissed and actually made me logoff because she said everything rot said was a lie, and "didn't like me to read such stupid things." Yes, her English is not perfect.... yet :p
You see, Mill, there's your answer. Your GF is just rich. That's why she fled to Alabama. Didn't you know? Lucky for you some privileged rich American kid off the internet explained to you her selfish, hysterical, dishonest ways. See, it was just counter-revolutionary propaganda and bourgeois news reports faked to make it look like Chavez' troops shot at innocent protesters... really it was CIA snipers like the ones on the grassy knoll who also guard the secret of the Grays at Area 51.
Dé gracias a dios sabemos la verdad. ;)
You are completely right. She's extremely wealthy (laugh), so that's why her family doesn't even have a car. :)

Rot will never get it. He's a keyboard warrior with no experience when it comes to the actual situation. Did you noticed how he flat out refused to answer what his exposure was?

Again, Steeple, what is your connection to Venezeula? What proof do you have other than reading highly sensational journals from Emule?

Craig and Rot think that if someone doesn't like Chavez it makes them rich. Fact is, I only know ONE rich person from that area of the globe, and she likes Chavez MORE than any of the poor people I know. How's that for contrast?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)
the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)
the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
Heh a regular old crusader you are.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)
the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
Well, if you read my post, you'd see I'd believe he was elected through less than legitimate means. I don't really give a fvck what the US thinks. All my experience with Chavez has nothing to do with the US Government or any type of political dogma. My experience has been through discussions with countless Latin Americans from countries such as Colombia, Peru, Argentina, Ecuador, Venezuela, and Brazil. I trust their feelings toward their own leaders more than I trust the varied news reports bandied about by sides.

Voter disenfranchisement and intimidation is nothing to sneeze at. I'm sorry you see it as "capitalist" propaganda. Rather hilarious, because when the discussion shifts to trade and economics most people I've met tend to slightly favor a welfare state or are against the FTAA, CAFTA, or whatever free trade agreement that is in place. Doesn't sound like a bundle of budding Capitalists to me.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)
the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
Well, if you read my post, you'd see I'd believe he was elected through less than legitimate means. I don't really give a fvck what the US thinks. All my experience with Chavez has nothing to do with the US Government or any type of political dogma. My experience has been through discussions with countless Latin Americans from countries such as Colombia, Peru, Argentina, Ecuador, Venezuela, and Brazil. I trust their feelings toward their own leaders more than I trust the varied news reports bandied about by sides.

Voter disenfranchisement and intimidation is nothing to sneeze at. I'm sorry you see it as "capitalist" propaganda. Rather hilarious, because when the discussion shifts to trade and economics most people I've met tend to slightly favor a welfare state or are against the FTAA, CAFTA, or whatever free trade agreement that is in place. Doesn't sound like a bundle of budding Capitalists to me.
you are confused. perhaps there "communist/capitalist" doesn't frame the discussion, but it ultimately does in the US.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
Serious doubt was cast on the validity of polls in Venezuela. That's my whole point, and I don't understand how you keep missing it. For the record, polls even in the US and Canada are notoriously unreliable. I can't believe you a basing anything on polls out of a media controlled country -- especially with constant reports of intimidation and disenfranchisement. Believe what you want, but I consider your attempts to minimize what I've posted an affront to anyone that likes to follow world events.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
there's a difference between fixed elections and free elections.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
there's a difference between fixed elections and free elections.
Apparently not in the socialist paradise of Venezuela
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
Serious doubt was cast on the validity of polls in Venezuela. That's my whole point, and I don't understand how you keep missing it. For the record, polls even in the US and Canada are notoriously unreliable. I can't believe you a basing anything on polls out of a media controlled country -- especially with constant reports of intimidation and disenfranchisement. Believe what you want, but I consider your attempts to minimize what I've posted an affront to anyone that likes to follow world events.
i'm not talking about opinion polls.

international observers found no intimidation.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
there's a difference between fixed elections and free elections.
Apparently not in the socialist paradise of Venezuela
proof?
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
there's a difference between fixed elections and free elections.
Apparently not in the socialist paradise of Venezuela
proof?
Well first hand testimonial posted here didn't count as proof for you, so what's the point?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
Serious doubt was cast on the validity of polls in Venezuela. That's my whole point, and I don't understand how you keep missing it. For the record, polls even in the US and Canada are notoriously unreliable. I can't believe you a basing anything on polls out of a media controlled country -- especially with constant reports of intimidation and disenfranchisement. Believe what you want, but I consider your attempts to minimize what I've posted an affront to anyone that likes to follow world events.
i'm not talking about opinion polls.

international observers found no intimidation.
They found no active, out in the open intimidation in the short period they were there.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
Wow, that's quite a logical fallacy. Sure, you can find disgruntled people the world over, but it doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, or that the young man is not credible. There's been VERY few sources posted on this board that have an in-depth and unbiased look at the populace there and what they think of Chavez. Instead of NewsMax or Socialist Worker, we've got information from someone who is relatively untainted. I most certainly didn't give him my opinions or lead him on. I just asked standard questions and let him speak. That's a far cry from the propraganda wars that take place in any thread on Chavez. This *IS* a truthful account, and much more valuable than 99% of the information presented on the situation there.
"truthful" or not it is just one persons opinion. just look on this board to see how 1 persons opinion matters. does any one persons opinion here represent that of all persons in their respective country?

the polls are the real reflection of a people's will.
You are right, when Saddam won his re-election bid in 2003 11,000,000 to 1, the people spoke obviously.

lol and the right is painted as having sole ownership of the term "sheeple". When leaders like Chavez ask you to jump, do you ask how high?
there's a difference between fixed elections and free elections.
I think you understand my sarcasm.

 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski

i'm not talking about opinion polls.

international observers found no intimidation.
And journalists who visited Germany pre-WW2 found it to be a paradise land full of gumdrops and sunshine
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
10,560
136
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

I managed to speak with a few Venezuelans while I was in Colombia a week ago. One young man I met was very unimpressed with Chavez. He was from Maracaibo, which interestingly is where Chavez's opponent, Rosales, is from.

He didn't like Rosales, but his disdain for Chavez was obvious. He gave the same points I have heard elsewhere from those with a dislike for Chavez.

1. He spends his time playing international politics instead of solving domestic problems.
2. He spreads the oil wealth in an attempt to buy supporters and votes, and is neglecting the infrastructure of the country.
3. His control of the media has reached a point to where people are very unhappy with the content they receive. It is either Pro-Chavez, or it receives less than equal time.

This young man and his family was far from wealthy. I discussed with him the much lauded Cuban doctors. They are hailed as the best of the best, yet I was given a much different perspective. He told me that were grossly incompetent, and at best were avoided by much of the populace. Sure, some care is better than none, but most people scrounge together money to visit much better trained European, American, or native Venezeulan doctors. He told me that they were almost considered a joke, and you only went to them if you were a diehard Chavista or unable to see another doctor.

As far as Chavez's "free-elections." He told me that the media refuses to discuss or report it, but that many people were scared to vote, and that because of that lots of non-Chavez supporters did not vote. They were scared that votes would be released with secret lists, or that their employment, homes, and families would be in jeopardy if someone found out. Intimidation was not at the level of being overtly open, but it was near the surface enough to disenfranchise a sizable part of the populace.

This young man, interestingly enough, was only marginally capitalist. He said he firmly believes in a welfare state, but not one that Chavez is creating. Chavez, to him, is a liar, a thief, and a fascist. He doesn't believe that Chavez is heading down the path to fascism, he believes he is already there.

So, steeple and craig, I assume you have some "on-the-ground" so to speak reporting available. So far, I've yet to find very many Chavez supporters in my travel around South America. Supporters of a welfare state and socialism to be sure, but of Chavez? Not many.
pretty much meaningless. you can find people with those types of opinions about any leader anywhere.
The difference is people that are adamently support Chavez here in the US feel that he is above reproach and everything negative is right-wing propaganda. the are veiwing him for the public display that he puts on for the international scene. (which is what would mentioned in the post)
the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
There's a reason for this (although I don't approve, being a borderline isolationist). History has shown us time and again that governments like Chavez' are inherently authoritarian, centered around the cult of personality, and that human rights abuses inevitably follow. And when that happens, the US is condemned for not intervening. Damned if you do damned if you don't. I don't know why the world expects the US to be its babysitter, but I do wish they'd be more respectful about it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill

proof?
Well first hand testimonial posted here didn't count as proof for you, so what's the point?
opinion is not proof
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,605
3,732
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Mill
I feel it necessary to bump this to give some evidence that I obtained just recently.

the opposite is also true, even more so. the US throws hissy fits whenever a non-capitalist gets elected, even when it's done through legitimate means. someone needs to counter-act the "commie hysteria".
There's a reason for this (although I don't approve, being a borderline isolationist). History has shown us time and again that governments like Chavez' are inherently authoritarian, centered around the cult of personality, and that human rights abuses inevitably follow. And when that happens, the US is condemned for not intervening. Damned if you do damned if you don't. I don't know why the world expects the US to be its babysitter, but I do wish they'd be more respectful about it.
i'll grant you that chavez could turn authoritarian, but until he does most(here) criticism against him is unwarranted.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
The leftist/socialist track record for Central/South America and otther countries seems to speak for themselves.

They start out doing good; become power hungry and then someone is asked to solve the problem.

Typical Catch 22 situation.

Not to say that our system is the best; but when other countries attempt to follow the socialist regime, the end up worse for their population that we are.

Psuedo dictatorsips develop with filtered information available to the outside world. The media gets spoon fed and people lap it up.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY